S40 hard starting/long crank time (still!)

Hi all,

I've posted this before and am still battling the same problem. In
brief:

THE CAR: 2001 S40 1.9T (auto with about 250K).

THE PROBLEM: Hard starting, long cranking time.

OBSERVATIONS:
1. The hard starting happens always when the engine is cold (sitting
for more than one hour). Car starts best in extreme sub-zero
temperatures
2. When it cranks for a long time (5 seconds) before catching there's
a strong smell of gasoline
3. The starter motor cranks hard and steady, there's no sign of weak
battery.
4. It has not yet failed to start or stalled out while running.
5. Once it stumbles up to normal idle and then it idles smoothly. This
stumbling lead-up to normal idle has lit the CHECK ENGINE light.

STEPS TAKEN:
1. New spark plugs installed (and properly gapped)
2. New wireset to plugs installed
3. New ingition coil packs installed
4. Installation of exhaust gas venting valve as per Technical Service
Bulletin (specifically meant to address long cranking time)

I took the car to a small shop here in Toronto originally suggesting
the fuel pressure regulator be examined but they dismissed this,
citing that the smell of unburned fuel indicates that the regulator
was delivering fuel as it should. I later asked if he used an external
fuel pressure guage to test it and he said he had but I'm not entirely
sure he did. In my mind too much fuel would be just as detrimental as
not enough.

Any further ideas? Does all of this point even more strongly toward
the regulator? Is there any way I can test it before dropping another
$300?

Your suggestions, comments, and questions are welcomed.

Thanks in advance,
blurp

blurp wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've posted this before and am still battling the same problem. In
> brief:
>
> THE CAR: 2001 S40 1.9T (auto with about 250K).
>
> THE PROBLEM: Hard starting, long cranking time...

You try a series of short cranks?
Let the motor turn over 3 or 4 times. Stop for a second or two then repeat.
If it doesn't catch by the third or fourth try, forget it. That wasn't it.

Camshaft position sensor ?

blurp wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've posted this before and am still battling the same problem. In
> brief:
>
> THE CAR: 2001 S40 1.9T (auto with about 250K).
>
> THE PROBLEM: Hard starting, long cranking time.
>
> OBSERVATIONS:
> 1. The hard starting happens always when the engine is cold (sitting
> for more than one hour). Car starts best in extreme sub-zero
> temperatures
> 2. When it cranks for a long time (5 seconds) before catching there's
> a strong smell of gasoline
> 3. The starter motor cranks hard and steady, there's no sign of weak
> battery.
> 4. It has not yet failed to start or stalled out while running.
> 5. Once it stumbles up to normal idle and then it idles smoothly. This
> stumbling lead-up to normal idle has lit the CHECK ENGINE light.
>
> STEPS TAKEN:
> 1. New spark plugs installed (and properly gapped)
> 2. New wireset to plugs installed
> 3. New ingition coil packs installed
> 4. Installation of exhaust gas venting valve as per Technical Service
> Bulletin (specifically meant to address long cranking time)
>
> I took the car to a small shop here in Toronto originally suggesting
> the fuel pressure regulator be examined but they dismissed this,
> citing that the smell of unburned fuel indicates that the regulator
> was delivering fuel as it should. I later asked if he used an external
> fuel pressure guage to test it and he said he had but I'm not entirely
> sure he did. In my mind too much fuel would be just as detrimental as
> not enough.
>
> Any further ideas? Does all of this point even more strongly toward
> the regulator? Is there any way I can test it before dropping another
> $300?
>
> Your suggestions, comments, and questions are welcomed.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> blurp

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:49:19 -0800, clay <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>blurp wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I've posted this before and am still battling the same problem. In
>> brief:
>>
>> THE CAR: 2001 S40 1.9T (auto with about 250K).
>>
>> THE PROBLEM: Hard starting, long cranking time...
>
>You try a series of short cranks?
>Let the motor turn over 3 or 4 times. Stop for a second or two then repeat.
>If it doesn't catch by the third or fourth try, forget it. That wasn't it.

That was suggested by the shop and it didn't really make a difference:
it doesn't start until the starter turns it over 10-12 times or more.

But, to go back to what you said:
> If it doesn't catch by the third or fourth try, forget it. That wasn't it.

If it doesn't catch then WHAT wasn't it? What can I rule out?

Thanks,
blurp

Do you know of any way to test that? If so I'll check it out.

Thanks,
blurp


On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:16:00 -0000, "Advanced Kitty"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Camshaft position sensor ?
>

>blurp wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I've posted this before and am still battling the same problem. In
>> brief:
>>
>> THE CAR: 2001 S40 1.9T (auto with about 250K).
>>
>> THE PROBLEM: Hard starting, long cranking time.
>>
>> OBSERVATIONS:
>> 1. The hard starting happens always when the engine is cold (sitting
>> for more than one hour). Car starts best in extreme sub-zero
>> temperatures
>> 2. When it cranks for a long time (5 seconds) before catching there's
>> a strong smell of gasoline
>> 3. The starter motor cranks hard and steady, there's no sign of weak
>> battery.
>> 4. It has not yet failed to start or stalled out while running.
>> 5. Once it stumbles up to normal idle and then it idles smoothly. This
>> stumbling lead-up to normal idle has lit the CHECK ENGINE light.
>>
>> STEPS TAKEN:
>> 1. New spark plugs installed (and properly gapped)
>> 2. New wireset to plugs installed
>> 3. New ingition coil packs installed
>> 4. Installation of exhaust gas venting valve as per Technical Service
>> Bulletin (specifically meant to address long cranking time)
>>
>> I took the car to a small shop here in Toronto originally suggesting
>> the fuel pressure regulator be examined but they dismissed this,
>> citing that the smell of unburned fuel indicates that the regulator
>> was delivering fuel as it should. I later asked if he used an external
>> fuel pressure guage to test it and he said he had but I'm not entirely
>> sure he did. In my mind too much fuel would be just as detrimental as
>> not enough.
>>
>> Any further ideas? Does all of this point even more strongly toward
>> the regulator? Is there any way I can test it before dropping another
>> $300?
>>
>> Your suggestions, comments, and questions are welcomed.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> blurp
>

Should throw up a code.

blurp wrote:
> Do you know of any way to test that? If so I'll check it out.
>
> Thanks,
> blurp
>
>
> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:16:00 -0000, "Advanced Kitty"
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> Camshaft position sensor ?
>>
>
>> blurp wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I've posted this before and am still battling the same problem. In
>>> brief:
>>>
>>> THE CAR: 2001 S40 1.9T (auto with about 250K).
>>>
>>> THE PROBLEM: Hard starting, long cranking time.
>>>
>>> OBSERVATIONS:
>>> 1. The hard starting happens always when the engine is cold (sitting
>>> for more than one hour). Car starts best in extreme sub-zero
>>> temperatures
>>> 2. When it cranks for a long time (5 seconds) before catching
>>> there's a strong smell of gasoline
>>> 3. The starter motor cranks hard and steady, there's no sign of weak
>>> battery.
>>> 4. It has not yet failed to start or stalled out while running.
>>> 5. Once it stumbles up to normal idle and then it idles smoothly.
>>> This stumbling lead-up to normal idle has lit the CHECK ENGINE
>>> light.
>>>
>>> STEPS TAKEN:
>>> 1. New spark plugs installed (and properly gapped)
>>> 2. New wireset to plugs installed
>>> 3. New ingition coil packs installed
>>> 4. Installation of exhaust gas venting valve as per Technical
>>> Service Bulletin (specifically meant to address long cranking time)
>>>
>>> I took the car to a small shop here in Toronto originally suggesting
>>> the fuel pressure regulator be examined but they dismissed this,
>>> citing that the smell of unburned fuel indicates that the regulator
>>> was delivering fuel as it should. I later asked if he used an
>>> external fuel pressure guage to test it and he said he had but I'm
>>> not entirely sure he did. In my mind too much fuel would be just as
>>> detrimental as not enough.
>>>
>>> Any further ideas? Does all of this point even more strongly toward
>>> the regulator? Is there any way I can test it before dropping
>>> another $300?
>>>
>>> Your suggestions, comments, and questions are welcomed.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance,
>>> blurp

blurp wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:49:19 -0800, clay <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>blurp wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I've posted this before and am still battling the same problem. In
>>> brief:
>>>
>>> THE CAR: 2001 S40 1.9T (auto with about 250K).
>>>
>>> THE PROBLEM: Hard starting, long cranking time...
>>
>>You try a series of short cranks?
>>Let the motor turn over 3 or 4 times. Stop for a second or two then repeat.
>>If it doesn't catch by the third or fourth try, forget it. That wasn't it.
>
> That was suggested by the shop and it didn't really make a difference:
> it doesn't start until the starter turns it over 10-12 times or more.
>
> But, to go back to what you said:
>> If it doesn't catch by the third or fourth try, forget it. That wasn't it.
>
> If it doesn't catch then WHAT wasn't it? What can I rule out?
>

Some fuel injection systems (FI) have logic circuits in them. If there's
no fuel pressure then the system doesn't provide spark.
Many FI bleed pressure when they sit. When you jump in and turn the key
there's no pressure, therefore no spark.
As you leave it turning over it builds fuel pressure but nothing there
to lite it.
Release the key once and try it again. The cycle starts over except now
there is pressure so now you get spark and it fires.
If it doesn't, then that's not it.
As Mr. V pointed out in another thread, you can use a timing light to
see if the plugs are sparking.

On Feb 23, 9:25*am, blurp <clubs...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've posted this before and am still battling the same problem. In
> brief:
>
> THE CAR: 2001 S40 1.9T (auto with about 250K).
>
> THE PROBLEM: Hard starting, long cranking time.
>
> OBSERVATIONS:
> 1. The hard starting happens always when the engine is cold (sitting
> for more than one hour). Car starts best in extreme sub-zero
> temperatures
> 2. When it cranks for a long time (5 seconds) before catching there's
> a strong smell of gasoline
> 3. The starter motor cranks hard and steady, there's no sign of weak
> battery.
> 4. It has not yet failed to start or stalled out while running.
> 5. Once it stumbles up to normal idle and then it idles smoothly. This
> stumbling lead-up to normal idle has lit the CHECK ENGINE light.
>
> STEPS TAKEN:
> 1. New spark plugs installed (and properly gapped)
> 2. New wireset to plugs installed
> 3. New ingition coil packs installed
> 4. Installation of exhaust gas venting valve as per Technical Service
> Bulletin (specifically meant to address long cranking time)
>
> I took the car to a small shop here in Toronto originally suggesting
> the fuel pressure regulator be examined but they dismissed this,
> citing that the smell of unburned fuel indicates that the regulator
> was delivering fuel as it should. I later asked if he used an external
> fuel pressure guage to test it and he said he had but I'm not entirely
> sure he did. In my mind too much fuel would be just as detrimental as
> not enough.
>
> Any further ideas? Does all of this point even more strongly toward
> the regulator? Is there any way I can test it before dropping another
> $300?
>
> Your suggestions, comments, and questions are welcomed.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> blurp

Do you smell unburnt fuel, then maybe its flooding and fuel related.
New coils, wires plugs so spark should be hot if battery is good, but
it may not be. Did someone put it on a scope to see if it fires well
on starting, or do a test pull a plug or use an extra plug and ground
it to see if you have a blue color. What is battery voltage, 12.8v is
full charge 13.3 just after its shut off. Low compression makes
starting harder and your motor has the miles, is that 250000 miles, if
so its worn. Smelling gas to me means its getting to much fuel to
ignite, or not enough spark to ignite it and low compression could
agravate the main issue of weak spark or to much fuel.

On 2/23/2010 10:25, blurp wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've posted this before and am still battling the same problem. In
> brief:
>
> THE CAR: 2001 S40 1.9T (auto with about 250K).
>
> THE PROBLEM: Hard starting, long cranking time.
>
> OBSERVATIONS:
> 1. The hard starting happens always when the engine is cold (sitting
> for more than one hour). Car starts best in extreme sub-zero
> temperatures
> 2. When it cranks for a long time (5 seconds) before catching there's
> a strong smell of gasoline
> 3. The starter motor cranks hard and steady, there's no sign of weak
> battery.
> 4. It has not yet failed to start or stalled out while running.
> 5. Once it stumbles up to normal idle and then it idles smoothly. This
> stumbling lead-up to normal idle has lit the CHECK ENGINE light.
>
> STEPS TAKEN:
> 1. New spark plugs installed (and properly gapped)
> 2. New wireset to plugs installed
> 3. New ingition coil packs installed
> 4. Installation of exhaust gas venting valve as per Technical Service
> Bulletin (specifically meant to address long cranking time)
>
> I took the car to a small shop here in Toronto originally suggesting
> the fuel pressure regulator be examined but they dismissed this,
> citing that the smell of unburned fuel indicates that the regulator
> was delivering fuel as it should. I later asked if he used an external
> fuel pressure guage to test it and he said he had but I'm not entirely
> sure he did. In my mind too much fuel would be just as detrimental as
> not enough.
>
> Any further ideas? Does all of this point even more strongly toward
> the regulator? Is there any way I can test it before dropping another
> $300?
>
> Your suggestions, comments, and questions are welcomed.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> blurp
Check Engine Light On or Off @ this point I would take a trip to your
local Volvo Dealer & Have them Diagnose your problem most likely it will
cost you 1 Hour @ whatever there labor rate is before dropping $300.00
for a part that you are not sure if it is needed or not if the dealer
comes back & tells you that you need the fuel pressure regulator then
purchase & do it yourself
G Klein
Volvo Certified Technician 2009
ASE Certified Technician 2009


--
"Some people are like a Slinky.....not really good for anything,
but you still can't help but smile when you shove them
down the stairs."

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:12:42 -0800 (PST), ransley
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>On Feb 23, 9:25*am, blurp <clubs...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I've posted this before and am still battling the same problem. In
>> brief:
>>
>> THE CAR: 2001 S40 1.9T (auto with about 250K).
>>
>> THE PROBLEM: Hard starting, long cranking time.
>>
>> OBSERVATIONS:
>> 1. The hard starting happens always when the engine is cold (sitting
>> for more than one hour). Car starts best in extreme sub-zero
>> temperatures
>> 2. When it cranks for a long time (5 seconds) before catching there's
>> a strong smell of gasoline
>> 3. The starter motor cranks hard and steady, there's no sign of weak
>> battery.
>> 4. It has not yet failed to start or stalled out while running.
>> 5. Once it stumbles up to normal idle and then it idles smoothly. This
>> stumbling lead-up to normal idle has lit the CHECK ENGINE light.
>>
>> STEPS TAKEN:
>> 1. New spark plugs installed (and properly gapped)
>> 2. New wireset to plugs installed
>> 3. New ingition coil packs installed
>> 4. Installation of exhaust gas venting valve as per Technical Service
>> Bulletin (specifically meant to address long cranking time)
>>
>> I took the car to a small shop here in Toronto originally suggesting
>> the fuel pressure regulator be examined but they dismissed this,
>> citing that the smell of unburned fuel indicates that the regulator
>> was delivering fuel as it should. I later asked if he used an external
>> fuel pressure guage to test it and he said he had but I'm not entirely
>> sure he did. In my mind too much fuel would be just as detrimental as
>> not enough.
>>
>> Any further ideas? Does all of this point even more strongly toward
>> the regulator? Is there any way I can test it before dropping another
>> $300?
>>
>> Your suggestions, comments, and questions are welcomed.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> blurp
>
>Do you smell unburnt fuel, then maybe its flooding and fuel related.
>New coils, wires plugs so spark should be hot if battery is good, but
>it may not be. Did someone put it on a scope to see if it fires well
>on starting, or do a test pull a plug or use an extra plug and ground
>it to see if you have a blue color. What is battery voltage, 12.8v is
>full charge 13.3 just after its shut off. Low compression makes
>starting harder and your motor has the miles, is that 250000 miles, if
>so its worn. Smelling gas to me means its getting to much fuel to
>ignite, or not enough spark to ignite it and low compression could
>agravate the main issue of weak spark or to much fuel.


Thanks all for the terrific insight, I have a few leads to follow up
on. The garage has offered to help track this oddity down with no
labor charge.

The battery, I am told, was tested but a start test was not performed.
I have a voltmeter so I can check some of that myself.

I recall the 240 having a common fuel pressure-related starting
problem when the car was hot because the elastic membrane that was
meant to keep pressure once the fuel pump stopped would deteriorate
and fail. It seems the FPR on this car has the same problem and may be
prone to a similar failure.

Can the easy starting in extreme cold temperatures be a clue to
anything?

Thanks for all the input, I'll start checking these things out and
report back.

Cheers,
blurp
ps. The car has almost 250K km (not miles) on it.