940turbo and lpg

  • Thread starter Thread starter Valerio M
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Valerio M

hi,
i've found an awesome 940 turbo and was wondering whether i can convert it
to lpg fuel. in theory it's possible to make a turbo engine work with lpg
(as far as google says), but have never heard of such a thing. anyone has
any experience to share?

thanks,
____________________________
V a l e r i o M e r a n i
http://www.lazarusweb.com
____________________________
 
Because there's more to the internet than hits alone, Valerio M
wrote:

Don't know where in the world you are (Italy?) but I've cross posted
this to uk.rec.cars.fuel.lpg where people can be pretty helpful.
hi,
i've found an awesome 940 turbo and was wondering whether i can convert it
to lpg fuel. in theory it's possible to make a turbo engine work with lpg
(as far as google says), but have never heard of such a thing. anyone has
any experience to share?

thanks,
____________________________
V a l e r i o M e r a n i
http://www.lazarusweb.com
____________________________



--

Stewart Hargrave

I run on beans - laser beans


For email, replace 'SpamOnlyToHere' with my name
 
Stewart Hargrave said:
Because there's more to the internet than hits alone, Valerio M
wrote:

Don't know where in the world you are (Italy?) but I've cross posted
this to uk.rec.cars.fuel.lpg where people can be pretty helpful.

nice way to say "hey buddy, you're off topic here!!!"
btw, yes i'm in italy :))
anyway that 940 is just wonderful... i fell in love as soon as i saw it. i
wish i could fix this fuel issue, 'cause otherwise i couldn't afford such a
car :)

thanks for your help!! bye
____________________________
V a l e r i o M e r a n i
http://www.lazarusweb.com
____________________________
 
Valerio M said:
nice way to say "hey buddy, you're off topic here!!!"
btw, yes i'm in italy :))
anyway that 940 is just wonderful... i fell in love as soon as i saw it. i
wish i could fix this fuel issue, 'cause otherwise i couldn't afford such a
car :)

thanks for your help!! bye
____________________________
V a l e r i o M e r a n i
http://www.lazarusweb.com
____________________________

I read this article recently:

http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/Maserati.html so it can be done

but other than that I've not a lot to say really.

Graeme
 
nice way to say "hey buddy, you're off topic here!!!"
btw, yes i'm in italy :))
anyway that 940 is just wonderful... i fell in love as soon as i saw it. i
wish i could fix this fuel issue, 'cause otherwise i couldn't afford such a
car :)

www.lpg-kits.com list kits for certain Volvo turbos, but not the 940
as far as I can see. But it still seems promising.
 
Because there's more to the internet than hits alone, Valerio M
wrote:
nice way to say "hey buddy, you're off topic here!!!"
btw, yes i'm in italy :))

Didn't mean to imply you were off topic - there are a few in the Volvo
group that run on LPG, me included. But I thought some LPG specialist
knowledge might be useful too.
anyway that 940 is just wonderful... i fell in love as soon as i saw it. i
wish i could fix this fuel issue, 'cause otherwise i couldn't afford such a
car :)

I'm no turbo expert, but I didn't think there were any technical
problems involved with such a conversion - whether anybody supplies a
kit for your particular setup is another matter. But the chap I got my
kit from, in the UK, had plenty to say about some turbos he'd
converted.
thanks for your help!! bye

's OK. Good luck.


--

Stewart Hargrave

I run on beans - laser beans


For email, replace 'SpamOnlyToHere' with my name
 
hi,
i've found an awesome 940 turbo and was wondering whether i can convert it
to lpg fuel. in theory it's possible to make a turbo engine work with lpg
(as far as google says), but have never heard of such a thing. anyone has
any experience to share?

Try asking Megasquirt

www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html
http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirtspecs.html
http://members.shaw.ca/megasquirt/MS FAQ.htm



Regards,

Boris Mohar

Got Knock? - see:
Viatrack Printed Circuit Designs http://www3.sympatico.ca/borism/
Aurora, Ontario
 
Valerio M said:

if someone cares to know: today i've talked to a lpg kit installer and he
told me (only after asking me about the kW of the engine) that there are no
problems with the volvo 940 2.0turbo, although seems like it's not
recommended using lpg during city drive (while it works ok in motorway
rides). he said the conversion'll cost me around 2000euros.

bye,
____________________________
V a l e r i o M e r a n i
http://www.lazarusweb.com
____________________________
 
Valerio M said:
if someone cares to know: today i've talked to a lpg kit installer and he
told me (only after asking me about the kW of the engine) that there are no
problems with the volvo 940 2.0turbo, although seems like it's not
recommended using lpg during city drive (while it works ok in motorway
rides). he said the conversion'll cost me around 2000euros.


What's the downside of using it for city driving? For whatever reason LPG
vehicles are *very* rare here, I think I've seen two or three in my entire
life aside from old school busses. Sounds like they have some fascinating
advantages though.
 
What's the downside of using it for city driving? For whatever reason LPG
vehicles are *very* rare here, I think I've seen two or three in my entire
life aside from old school busses.

well i don't really have a clue on the downsides, but will investigate
further :))
the thing is very simple, here in europe gas is expensive (in a word,
italian government pays much of its expeses thru gas taxes, cigarettes and
alcohol), and i guess you'd switch to lpg too, if you paid roughly $1,20 for
about 1/4 of a gallon :))
well i'm assuming you live in the us.
Anyway as far as i know, all lpg does is cut the fuel costs, while you give
up around 12-15% of your engine power.

bye,
____________________________
V a l e r i o M e r a n i
http://www.lazarusweb.com
____________________________
 
Because there's more to the internet than hits alone, Valerio M
wrote:

Anyway as far as i know, all lpg does is cut the fuel costs, while you give
up around 12-15% of your engine power.

In a properly set up installation you will lose a few % in power, but
12 - 15% may be overstating it some. On my non-turbo 740 the
difference is so slight that I'm not aware of it in daily use. But it
may be more noticable on the turbo. The absolute fuel consumption will
increase some, maybe as much as 20% (LPG has only about 80% of the
energy value of petrol), but this is offset by much cheaper fuel.

In theory it should be possible to make an engine run on LPG much more
efficiently than it does on petrol, but in practice this is not really
acheived. Remember that you are converting an engine designed to run
on petrol, so there will be some compromises - in particular there is
no real chance of exploiting LPG's much higher octane rating.

Other benefits include cleaner exhaust gases, particularly on pre-cat
cars, less contamination of the oil, and less engine wear. On a Volvo,
there is less in-car noise, too, because the underfloor fuel pumps can
be turned off.

I'd want to investigate the comment that town driving is best not done
on LPG. I can't think of any obvious reasons why this should be the
case. This is where some of the advantages of LPG are particulary
evident - fuel consumption is relatively high under these conditions,
so is engine wear.

Here in the UK the latest news is that the tax break given to LPG is
to be phased out over the next three years. But I console myself with
the thought that one reason I converted was so that I made less
environmental impact.


--

Stewart Hargrave

I run on beans - laser beans


For email, replace 'SpamOnlyToHere' with my name
 
Stewart Hargrave said:
Valerio M wrote:
In a properly set up installation you will lose a few % in power, but
12 - 15% may be overstating it some.

Okay, I'll now step in and disagree with both of you. :-)

I spent my apprenticeship as a mechanic installing LPG on vehicles.
Most of them were _straight_ LPG on V8s.

If the installation is dual fuel, particularly on a injected engine,
then a small power drop is to be expected. This is very much a case
of the fuel injection being fairly efficient to start with.

In *stark* contrast, changing a carburetted engine to straight LPG
can achieve in the order of 15% _more_ power than on petrol!

Liquid injection of LPG will _always_ beat petrol for both economy
and power, but doesn't appear to be commercially available.
On my non-turbo 740 the
difference is so slight that I'm not aware of it in daily use. But it
may be more noticable on the turbo.

Generally, LPG has a higher octane rating and will be able to have
more boost without detonation. If the engine is set up for LPG, the
turbo system should actually respond _better_ to LPG than a normally
aspirated engine.

I read recently that the butane content of fuel in Italy and Greece
is much higher than in northern europe, and hence the octane rating
is lower...
The absolute fuel consumption will
increase some, maybe as much as 20% (LPG has only about 80% of the
energy value of petrol), but this is offset by much cheaper fuel.

The energy content, by mass: premium petrol (gasoline) 43.5MJ/kg,
average mixture of LPG 46.1MJ/kg.
In theory it should be possible to make an engine run on LPG much more
efficiently than it does on petrol, but in practice this is not really
acheived. Remember that you are converting an engine designed to run
on petrol, so there will be some compromises - in particular there is
no real chance of exploiting LPG's much higher octane rating.

Yes, there is, actually. Dual timing curve controllers, different
wastegate settings for the two fuels, cold air induction...
Other benefits include cleaner exhaust gases, particularly on pre-cat
cars, less contamination of the oil, and less engine wear. On a Volvo,
there is less in-car noise, too, because the underfloor fuel pumps can
be turned off.

Or, as in my case, removed completely. Of course, the 350 chev
makes much nicer noises than the V6 did. :-)
I'd want to investigate the comment that town driving is best not done
on LPG. I can't think of any obvious reasons why this should be the
case. This is where some of the advantages of LPG are particulary
evident - fuel consumption is relatively high under these conditions,
so is engine wear.

The only thing that I've seen with some european convertors is that
they can freeze if you haven't warmed it up sufficiently from a cold
start and you plant it... Other than that, I don't know why this
suggestion would have been made.
Here in the UK the latest news is that the tax break given to LPG is
to be phased out over the next three years. But I console myself with
the thought that one reason I converted was so that I made less
environmental impact.

It is happening in Australia over 5 years, starting in 2008.
 
Stewart Hargrave said:
I'd want to investigate the comment that town driving is best not done
on LPG. I can't think of any obvious reasons why this should be the
case.

answering to both Stewart and athol :)
me neither. i think he ment the problem was related specifically to the 940
turbo engine (which btw is a 114kW engine, seemingly not the B230fk??). He
sounded a bit prophetic and didn't give much explanation. since my knowlege
on engines is very low, all i did was lurk thru the net in search of more
info. in fact, the majority of articles i read were not so convincing about
lpg and turbo engines. there seems to be always a problem with it. most of
the problems are engine backfires that could damage sensors (well, besides
engines, my technical english isn't also good :)). Everyone seems to agree
that gpl engines do not perform so good if they're more than 150-160kW
(which is a lot of power though).

We got one more tile in the puzzle: today another lpg installer refused to
do the job. he said it'll most likely cause troubles and he wasn't going to
bare any responsability... there must be areason for it i suppose!! i'm not
giving up, but wouldn't want to end up trashing an engine like that :(

cheers,
____________________________
V a l e r i o M e r a n i
http://www.lazarusweb.com
____________________________
 
This was my Maserati that i had converted ,car is since sold but i have kept
the Romano Lpg kit & tank if anyone is interested.

If you would l;ike to know a bit more about turbo engined cars and Lpg just
drop me a line , the car before the Maserati was a 3.6 Twin Turbo Jaguar
that i also had converted to Lpg but this was on an open loop system useing
a R90/E vaporiser & a modified Mixer,its generally a good idea to have a
flashlube kit fitted for the valves as the turbo's cause a lot more heat etc
etc.
 
Because there's more to the internet than hits alone, Valerio M
wrote:
answering to both Stewart and athol :)
me neither. i think he ment the problem was related specifically to the 940
turbo engine (which btw is a 114kW engine, seemingly not the B230fk??). He
sounded a bit prophetic and didn't give much explanation. since my knowlege
on engines is very low, all i did was lurk thru the net in search of more
info. in fact, the majority of articles i read were not so convincing about
lpg and turbo engines. there seems to be always a problem with it. most of
the problems are engine backfires that could damage sensors

LPG can be more prone to backfires in the induction tract. You must
take precautions against this, because the inlet tract downstream of
the mixer (LPG carburetter) will be filled with explosive mixture,
unlike the petrol system, where the injectors are very close to the
inlet valves. The problem is usually cause by poor ignition components
- LPG makes it more difficult for a spark to cross, so it may try to
fine a route back via another path. If it tracks to another plug lead,
this can result in igniting the mixture in the manifold.

Make sure all the high tension components (plugs, leads, distributor
cap, rotor arm, even coil) are in first class condition, and renew
them if in doubt. Also make sure that the mixer has a blowback
arrestor - this is a flap that closes to control the explosion and
prevent it damaging fragile stuff upstream.

We got one more tile in the puzzle: today another lpg installer refused to
do the job. he said it'll most likely cause troubles and he wasn't going to
bare any responsability... there must be areason for it i suppose!! i'm not
giving up, but wouldn't want to end up trashing an engine like that :(

I thought Italy was the centre of the universe as far as LPG equipment
goes, so I suppose there must be a fair bit of knowledge about it
there.


--

Stewart Hargrave

I run on beans - laser beans


For email, replace 'SpamOnlyToHere' with my name
 
Liquid injection of LPG will _always_ beat petrol for both economy
and power,

Yes but...
but doesn't appear to be commercially available.

I was exploring this a little on the .lpg group a couple of weeks ago.
It's a shame that the pressure which LPG is contained at cannot be
used to effect liquid injection - controlling it accurately would be
the main problem. Main problems involved with LI seem to revolve
around delivery and control of the fuel, and freezing injectors. But
it does seem to be under developement - IIRC Canada is leading the
way here.
Generally, LPG has a higher octane rating and will be able to have
more boost without detonation.

Yep; with a turbo. Thus improving the volumetric efficiency.
If the engine is set up for LPG, the
turbo system should actually respond _better_ to LPG than a normally
aspirated engine.

I've heard this.
I read recently that the butane content of fuel in Italy and Greece
is much higher than in northern europe, and hence the octane rating
is lower...

Something to do with how it behaves in its liquid form in different
climates, I think.
The energy content, by mass: premium petrol (gasoline) 43.5MJ/kg,
average mixture of LPG 46.1MJ/kg.

Yes, by mass. But most people (in Europe, anyway) buy and measure
their fuel consumption by volume. LPG is less dense than petrol, so
miles per gallon is not as good.
Yes, there is, actually. Dual timing curve controllers, different
wastegate settings for the two fuels, cold air induction...

I'm a bit sceptical about timing changes being utilised to exploit
octane ratings. For sure you need to adjust the ignition timing
because of the slower flame speed and different burning
characteristics. This is not straightforward and is not easy to do
throughout the power curve. But the higher octane can only be
exploited by increasing the compression somehow. Wastegate settings
and what-have-you can make a difference, but get nowhere near the
potential of an octane rating around 110. Someone on the .lpg
newsgroup was suggesting trying a diesel engine adapted with a spark
ignition, running on pure LPG. I await to hear the resulting
explosion.




--

Stewart Hargrave

I run on beans - laser beans


For email, replace 'SpamOnlyToHere' with my name
 
Valerio M said:
me neither. i think he ment the problem was related specifically to the 940
turbo engine (which btw is a 114kW engine, seemingly not the B230fk??). He
sounded a bit prophetic and didn't give much explanation. since my knowlege
on engines is very low, all i did was lurk thru the net in search of more
info. in fact, the majority of articles i read were not so convincing about
lpg and turbo engines. there seems to be always a problem with it. most of
the problems are engine backfires that could damage sensors (well, besides
engines, my technical english isn't also good :)). Everyone seems to agree
that gpl engines do not perform so good if they're more than 150-160kW
(which is a lot of power though).

One very important thing to consider is that the LPG mixer should be
located _after_ the turbo (and intercooler, if fitted). The turbo is
matched to the volume of _air_ to be pumped, and adding vapour fuel
before the turbo will alter the volume of air/fuel mixture to be
pumped by the turbo, shifting the operating conditions of the turbo
to a different part of the turbo's characteristic "map". This can
lead to "surge", insufficient boost and various other wierd problems.

The "Atmospheric reference" port of the convertor then needs to be
connected to boost pressure immediately above the mixer - the
convertor and mixer should see the same "reference" pressure. The
closed-loop setup may affect this is some systems.

The only time that LPG should be used in a draw-through configuration
is if the petrol system was that way to start with.
We got one more tile in the puzzle: today another lpg installer refused to
do the job. he said it'll most likely cause troubles and he wasn't going to
bare any responsability... there must be areason for it i suppose!! i'm not
giving up, but wouldn't want to end up trashing an engine like that :(

Some places are happy to limit the type of work they do because of
potential problems with things they're not familiar with. I do the
same in my work to some extent.
 
One very important thing to consider is that the LPG mixer should be
located _after_ the turbo

sounds like you're pretty positive about the feasibility of it on a
940turbo. i understand in general it's possible, although there might be
some phisical (or constructional) limitations that could compromise the
conversion. anyway, thanks a lot to all of you for your help i apreciate it
:))

bye,
____________________________
V a l e r i o M e r a n i
http://www.lazarusweb.com
____________________________
 
this system will work www.gascontrol.it


Stewart Hargrave said:
Because there's more to the internet than hits alone, Valerio M
wrote:

Don't know where in the world you are (Italy?) but I've cross posted
this to uk.rec.cars.fuel.lpg where people can be pretty helpful.




--

Stewart Hargrave

I run on beans - laser beans


For email, replace 'SpamOnlyToHere' with my name
 
this system will work www.gascontrol.it
Site just shuts down Netscape 7.1. IE6 is blocked and is staying
blocked from internet access - seemed like every time I tried to use
it, some pop up popped up to download and actively install a virus.
 
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