OPINION:Quality and Passion Declining in European Automakers

(please note;this is crossposted to Mercedes,BMW,Jaguar,Audi and
Volvo)Although I am a fan of 70s' and 80s' European automobiles,I can
not help notice this trend all across the board!Rust on new Mercedes
and BMW,plastic on the exteriors of Volvo,and so on.......Who do you
see as the dominate automaker,say,10 years from now?What is a realistic
life expectancy of 2000 and newer European automobile and are you truly
happy with your purchase(do you feel cheated)?In your opinion,what
item(s)need to be done away with or improved?Hopefully,all those whom
respond understand that it is not my intention to start a bash war,just
want to hear opinions from fellow European automotive enthusiast!

 

My roommate hear in Seattle had a 2001 Saab, and it handled and felt
like a GM. I used to regularly drive an older Saab 99 as well as a 900
and this new (93 I think), didn't feel like european vehicle at all to
me...

My wife drives a 2001 Volvo and that still has the appropriate feel IMO.

 

Mercedes quality is improving, but the cars aren't functional as they
used to be. I find the CLS rather ugly, tiny windows, submarine like.
I'm surprised at how many find it beautiful. And the functional Mercedes
of the 80s would never make such a compromised-function style design.
Road manners are fine, some of the tanklike firmness has been softened.

BMW's styling is now at least controversial, but solid and well built
with excellent handling and class-leading dynamic qualities. Maybe
overkill with electronic steering and a bit too much stuff inside. I'd
like to see them go back to functional.

Audi has had questionable reliability in the past. The interiors are
some of the best in the business. Cars feel like planted German cars to
me. Handle well, quattro is great.

Volvos handle better, look better, use quality materials (with some
exceptions), plastic was first used by Mercedes in the 80s--I remember
the S class using plastic on the lower bodies. I think Volvo is fine,
the s40 is very understated and goes well, so is the xc90, but I miss
the visibility of all of the European cars of the 70s and 80s. Spotty
reliability, especially early s80, s60, and some issues with s40s and xc90s.

Jaguar is hard to guage. Jaguar is in a rut of sorts, I don't find the S
and X to feel like sumptuous Jags of the past. Only the XJ feels this
way. There's more Jag components in the Ford platforms, so maybe Ford
learned its lesson that Jag can't have too much Ford content.

I like the Saab 3, but the other Saabs are questionable. I hope this
very individual brand gets back to being unique, but I'm not counting on
GM to keep it this way. Losing the hatchback loses at lot of
individuality and carrying capacity.

VW's feel great, but the new Jetta looks Corolla-like in some ways,
inside and out, and they've softened the handling a lot. New Passat
looks like it will overtake Camry/Accord quality.

Overall, European cars are still desirable, Japanese cars keep them on
their toes. Also, some Japanese cars, like Infinity M45, which used to
have pathetic interior and exterior styling, now has wow styling and
feels more cutting-edge than the more conservative European designs.
But, new Mercedes S looks good, BMW took chances, Volvo's s40 has some
interesting features, Audi's A6 is wonderfully modern and integrated.
Competition is yielding interesting designs.

 

Worst thing I did was to buy a Z3.
US manufactured with burrs under the hood and everywhere there's an edge.
Hoses too short to fit with the nipples, Inverted wheels (V drawingd turned
towards the rear !!!)

Fortunately Other Bimmers are made in Europe.

I had same of experience with rental Neons and Chryslers some years ago.
Finished like crap and crap they are. Definitely.

Regards

 

Just bought my wife a new X-Type 2.0 V6 SE Auto which kind of tells you
which camp I'm in, but we took a long time trying all relevant models in
this price range.

My wife doesn't like (or wants to pay) for powerful big engines, so we were
looking at all the smaller engined models which narrows down your choice and
makes you concentrate on other points of the vehicle.

Our final choice came down to the X-Type, a Merc C180K AMG saloon and the
Lexus IS200. We liked the outside desgin of the Merc, the quality and
equipment of the Lexus but the Jag won overall on quality of interior,
options and price.

We're delighted, it isn't exactly a quick car, but that's not what we were
buying, but it makes us feel we're driving a car that cost twice what it
actually did.

Alan M

www.atstone.co.uk

 

I can second that.

I had mine for 3 months before selling it because I was fed up with
the problems..from new I had leaky roof, stereo kept switching itself
off, gear stick fell to pieces, ocasionally it just refused to start -
to name a few! The finish on some of the car was less than you would
have expected from a BMW to say the least. Even a BMW dealer I talked
to afterwards agreed it was not a very well made car.

The problem is that people won't accept paying such huge premiums for
the quality now that they used to - especially as the competition is so
close - if not better in some cases. If you look at (in particular)
German cars of old you used to get fantastic build, but very little
in the way of equipment. But now everyone wants all the gadgets - at
the same price! so something has to give, and it has been the quality.

Matt.

 

The loss of the hatchback is what drove me away but the new Aero Combi
give me hope that the original Saab philosophy may not be gone
forever.

Kal

 

Interestingly I see that the coming S class has the truck propped up on the
fenders...Bangle style.

Makes me wonder if there is some function or capability driving this less
that attractive styling queue. Room, crunch-zone, balance...I don't know but
there must be something there because the most heat BMW took was for the
"Bangle Butt" and here is Mercedes putting it on thier luxo class car.

Everyone is going with that high waist. I don't think they can meet the
highest levels of side-impact without doing so..and I think it plays into
coming designs that will have higher hood areas to meet European pedestrian
safety standards. I could be wrong, but I think there are functional reasons
we are starting to see such styling departures for cars that used to be
beautiful. I get the sense there is something in the future that these
strange designs will eventually blend with, or into.

If you get by all the words (mags, Usenet etc) you'll find that BMW drive
better than they ever have and apart from active steering, the normal R&P on
the rest of the cars create and transmit the same level of tactile feedback
BMW has always been famous for.

I'm probably in the minoirty, but I have never thought Audi interiors were
so great. I know the mags love them, but I like simple....in the way BMW has
gone and in the way Volkswagen has been for some time. If I wanted a frilly
colorful interior I think Lexus does it best.

 

Are they still as tempermental as 80s?

Used to own a 81 5000,82 5000 Turbo,80 5000 Diesel,83 4000 Coupe(miss
this one dearly).Gave up on this line,but became very proficient with
CV Joint replacement.P.S. I didn't care for the battery under the back
seat.Loved that parts were interchangable from VW though.Audi has
improved by leaps and bounds,no arguement here!!

Remember the old ad where they drove a Volvo off a elevated area and
landed on its top and the structure was not challenged?Todays Volvo can
do the same?

Like to look at,scared to own!My pockets aren't that deep!

ahh,always admired the old 900 Turbo,great in the snow without a doubt.

Why did they kill the Scirocco?

 

I've long had a soft spot in my heart (and wallet) for European cars.
I've purchased two Volvos and two Volkswagens brand new over the past 20
years, yet my most recent purchase was a Honda.

Durability of most modern European vehicles is not very good. The
number of failure on my '96 Volvo 850, for example, have been far higher
than I expect for a premium class vehicle. Things like chronic ABS
controller failures, cupholders which constantly self destruct and trim
bits which fall apart for no good reason are all part of the experience.

I had expected to drive my '960 Volvo trouble free except for scheduled
maintenance and wear parts for at least 150,000 miles. Hah,
not.gonna.happen.com.

John

 

Mercedes quality is improving, but the cars aren't functional as they

Agreed all, the command systems are a mistake in my opinion.
MB made a huge mistake giving up their heritage and it will take time to get
their good name back.

The much maligned 7 series is absolutly beautiful inside, but why oh why do
they continue with I-Drive.
Well I will not likely ever have to seriously weigh the pros and cons of 7
series ownership, however if I-drive is ever sorted out it could be a great
idea--simple look and simple control.

Audi is on a HUGE quality kick--since 02 they took a page from Toyota and
figured out that quality saves money--when they have less rework and when
they have less warranty expense.

That said I am still putting of the purchase of the A6 my wife loves (just
like my old bosses yacht inside, can we please get it?)
Lets see what happens as the 02's and 03's enter the used car market....

xc90s.

Inexcusable mess, the mass airflow issues, but the s60 is unique and does
seem to radiate a intrensic goodness (posted by a volvo owner from the volvo
group)

Just look at a real Jag I.E. a XJ and tell me that somewhere you dont have
visions of asking Vikksbury to bring you a large whiskey and soda after you
arrive back in Jolly Old after nipping off to the continent for some amusing
tryst with a saucy chestnut haired beauty before you head home to the hearth
and Aga....

Very true, however the 9-2 shows some promise.
Now if GM could do a deal with Alfa and sell a rebadged and reworked 159 as
the next 9-3.
If one day I wake up next to oh, say Ally Sheedy or Michelle Peiffer or
Debra Winger

Agree they make a good design, but how the hell did they have that coil
issue?
What the hell were they thinking with the new Jetta? Corolla like? How
about Elantra like?
The new Passat looks like they are going way over for the German Buick
look--a bit overdone and luxe at the expense of performance.

Alfa, Acura, and Audi seem to have a better blend of performance and luxury.

If they correct their long term quality issues--so bad Audi split their
quality department from VW and bring out the new Karman Giha whatever they
call it the simple roadster they will be on a roll with the Electrra 225
Passat, the Elantra Jetta, the Miata roadster...gee how about the 1980's
version GTI in a modern guise? For less the 25?

Very true, also look at the price value that Acura gives--everything is
standard, they are not #1 in any thing but they are # 2 or 3 in
everything...and they charge the least too! Why the 330 costs 40 or more?
Well hey if they get it more power to them!

I disagree, but hey thats what makes it interesting.
The e350 seems true to the MB history however.

BMW took chances,
And they still make a very nice car, however the M45 and the TSX seem to
have a better handle on the mid sized and compact sports sedan
equation--Price is a big part of it!


Volvo's s40 has some

The 40/50 will be historic, along with the new 7 and the a6 for cars that
have design inside, serious statement design.
The slim stack is so lovely and elegent in the 40/50, the simple dash of the
7 series, albeit with the dread I-Drive, and the opulant luxury of the A6


Audi's A6 is wonderfully modern and integrated.

Very true, and hey the Kia is a good transportation box.
It is the flavor of the car that will be sold in the future.

Bland vanilla Toyota/Lexus
Edgy BMW
Sporty Infiniti
Prudent Acura and Volvo

and hey, they make some trucks in the USA that are not too bad....

 

Interesting topic - my views:

Mercedes - Quality atrocious, plasticky, nasty, V6s instead of I6s,
etc. Where's the quality engineering gone FFS?! The last true Mercedes
were built in the early 90s. The only Mercedes currently even remotely
desirable as a private buy is the SL, but then you still have to deal
with the truly dire Mercedes garages.

Audi - Always was good in terms of quality/styling/servicing, and is
getting better. Quality products. I'd say stable overall.

BMW - Still quality niggles on all new cars, but then they've always
had that. I for one am not put off privately buying new BMWs because of
this (just ordered my 4th one). You cannot beat the feel of precision
engineering that goes into BMW, unless you move up to 911s.
BMW is overall going from strength to strength (sales figures back this
up).
Most official garages are also good to very good, and servicing costs
are reasonable - can't complain.
Some people moan about the design of the 7 and 5 (personally like the
new 5, Z4, X3, but hate the 7).
[Side note - look at the new S-Class. They've actually copies certain
styling aspects from the 7! It's a mad world.]

Porsche - Cayenne aside (rebadged bloated overpriced VW? oh please!),
going from strength to strength. There was a dip in quality around
launched the both the 996 and the Boxster, but with the 997 and Cayman
they are back on track.

The other manufacturers? Well, who cares - irrelevant.
=)

 

Go Lexus, folks. You would not have the quality control troubles of
which you all write.


============
BuckShot LeFunk
==
1998 LS 400
1999 E320 4-Matic

 

Toyota Soarer(Lexus) in some parts of the world,no?

 

You would also not have any fun driving it.

Cheers,

Pete

 

The seats are comfy, and the stereo is good...just like home!

 

Exactly......you won't feel as if you're driving a Taxi cab, as Merc C and
E-Class drivers obviously do !

 

Durability of most modern European vehicles is not very good. ...

Those "problems" are hardly a sign of a lack of durability.

cupholders, ha!

cp

 

Ah, but if they can't get the cupholders right, how can you have any
confidence in the complicated bits and pieces?!

HW

 

Cupholders problems probably came with Ford as new owner of Volvo.
Converting shareholders problems to cupholders problems. Here in Germany
a company (which?) was sued: Driving fast on bad roads coffee entered
the AC system. Judges think auto makers should be aware of the fact that
coffee is placed on the cupholder near to air hoses when bad road is
coming up ahead.