Still trying to get it running right

  • Thread starter Thread starter Randy G.
  • Start date Start date
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Randy G.

My 240's performace is degrading, and I haven't even had it on teh
road for a week. Been trying to run down a problem, but no luck.

SYMPTOMS- it will start, rev to 2000 rpm, stay there for a bit, then
either die, or when warmed up a bit the RPM drops from teh 200 point
to about nil, baerely running, then revs agan, then drops, etc.
SOmetimes it "stabilizes at a round 100-1150rpm, and other tims
bumbles around 200rpm or so unless reved up a little. Revving the
motor seems to cause it to get lean, and repeatedly depressing and
releasing the motor gets it dunning to higher speed more smoothly, but
it is running rough. O2 sensor reporting the mixture incorrectly?

It is not in "limp" mde. I verified that by disconnecting the AMM and
starting the car. it ran in limp mode, and you could smell the
richness of the mixture. At that point it actually did set a "CHECK
ENGINE" light and post a 1-2-1 code. I turned off the car, reconnected
the AMM, cleared the code, and it was back to the original poor
running car, but it has not been posting an AMM fault (as it had been
in earlier posts).

I have checked the brake booster, and it holds vacuum for (literally)
hours. Cleaned the AMM and its contacts, cleaned the IAC and its
contacts, cleaned the contacts on the throttle position switch,
cleaned the.. well you get the idea. I also did the two tests on the
AMM as described in the Bentley.

At this point the frustration is such that if I could get it to drive
decently I would take it in to the mechanic I live about 30 rural
miles away).

I guess I am venting as much as looking for ideas... I suppose I can
open the throttle body and check the shaft seal, and I could do a
compression check just to make sure (but there is not excessive blowby
or crankcase pressure)..

I did spray WD-40 about (around teh injectors, intake, throttle body,
etc., but found no leaks.

Computer coolant temperature sensor? There are no errors for it
posted. It is a bitch to get to and get out.. :-/

Arghhh...... I want my car back!


__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"
 
Randy G. said:
My 240's performace is degrading, and I haven't even had it on teh
road for a week. Been trying to run down a problem, but no luck.

SYMPTOMS- it will start, rev to 2000 rpm, stay there for a bit, then
either die, or when warmed up a bit the RPM drops from teh 200 point
to about nil, baerely running, then revs agan, then drops, etc.
SOmetimes it "stabilizes at a round 100-1150rpm, and other tims
bumbles around 200rpm or so unless reved up a little. Revving the
motor seems to cause it to get lean, and repeatedly depressing and
Click to expand...
..............
blocked exhaust or cat converter?
 
Randy said:
My 240's performace is degrading, and I haven't even had it on teh
road for a week. Been trying to run down a problem, but no luck.

SYMPTOMS- it will start, rev to 2000 rpm, stay there for a bit, then
either die, or when warmed up a bit the RPM drops from teh 200 point
to about nil, baerely running, then revs agan, then drops, etc.
SOmetimes it "stabilizes at a round 100-1150rpm, and other tims
bumbles around 200rpm or so unless reved up a little. Revving the
motor seems to cause it to get lean, and repeatedly depressing and
releasing the motor gets it dunning to higher speed more smoothly, but
it is running rough. O2 sensor reporting the mixture incorrectly?

It is not in "limp" mde. I verified that by disconnecting the AMM and
starting the car. it ran in limp mode, and you could smell the
richness of the mixture. At that point it actually did set a "CHECK
ENGINE" light and post a 1-2-1 code. I turned off the car, reconnected
the AMM, cleared the code, and it was back to the original poor
running car, but it has not been posting an AMM fault (as it had been
in earlier posts).

I have checked the brake booster, and it holds vacuum for (literally)
hours. Cleaned the AMM and its contacts, cleaned the IAC and its
contacts, cleaned the contacts on the throttle position switch,
cleaned the.. well you get the idea. I also did the two tests on the
AMM as described in the Bentley.

At this point the frustration is such that if I could get it to drive
decently I would take it in to the mechanic I live about 30 rural
miles away).

I guess I am venting as much as looking for ideas... I suppose I can
open the throttle body and check the shaft seal, and I could do a
compression check just to make sure (but there is not excessive blowby
or crankcase pressure)..

I did spray WD-40 about (around teh injectors, intake, throttle body,
etc., but found no leaks.

Computer coolant temperature sensor? There are no errors for it
posted. It is a bitch to get to and get out.. :-/

Arghhh...... I want my car back!


__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"
Click to expand...
What codes if any are present on A6 which is the Ignition Side
Did you check the fresh air pipe from the MAF sensor to the throttle
Body this hose does crack & may be a cause of your problem
Glenn K

--
"*-344-*Never Forgotten"
Is for the New York City Firemen who lost their lives on September 11,2001.
The official count is 343, but there was also a volunteer who lost his life
aiding in the initial rescue efforts. And I will never forget them as
long as I live,
nor should any American.
 
.............
blocked exhaust or cat converter?
Click to expand...
I don't think so- once it gets up in RPM (and greatly increased
exhaust volume) it runs OK- not great, but OK.

__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"
 
Glenn Klein said:
What codes if any are present on A6 which is the Ignition Side
Did you check the fresh air pipe from the MAF sensor to the throttle
Body this hose does crack & may be a cause of your problem
Click to expand...

I have checked both the A2 and A6 codes numerous times and have gotten
no A6 codes, and with the A2 exceptions I have noted previously, none
are reported there either.

I have previously removed the hose from the MFA to throttle body and
shoved my florescent trouble light through it to look for leaks, and
found some very small wear spots, and only one showed any evidence of
leakage (about a 2-3 mm long, .5mm wide opening that only opened a bit
when the hose was stretched). I pactched all the thin spots with
plastic epoxy. I think I will remove the throttle body again to check
the shaft seal, and will check the hose again.

It would be a lot easier if the bad part just failed completely, or if
a code was posted.. Ughhhh... :-(

I threw a timing light on it today and the timing looked OK- advancing
when the throttle was opened to cause the RPMs to increase.

It does seem to run a bit better once it warms up than when it is
cold, but I haven't warmed it up all the way yet (becasue of how
poorly it is running), but that might be the next thing to try. Might
point towards the temperature sensor... or not...


__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"
 
Glenn Klein said:
What codes if any are present on A6 which is the Ignition Side
Did you check the fresh air pipe from the MAF sensor to the throttle
Body this hose does crack & may be a cause of your problem
Click to expand...

I have checked both the A2 and A6 codes numerous times and have gotten
no A6 codes, and with the A2 exceptions I have noted previously, none
are reported there either.

I have previously removed the hose from the MFA to throttle body and
shoved my florescent trouble light through it to look for leaks, and
found some very small wear spots, and only one showed any evidence of
leakage (about a 2-3 mm long, .5mm wide opening that only opened a bit
when the hose was stretched). I pactched all the thin spots with
plastic epoxy. I think I will remove the throttle body again to check
the shaft seal, and will check the hose again.

It would be a lot easier if the bad part just failed completely, or if
a code was posted.. Ughhhh... :-(

I threw a timing light on it today and the timing looked OK- advancing
when the throttle was opened to cause the RPMs to increase.

It does seem to run a bit better once it warms up than when it is
cold, but I haven't warmed it up all the way yet (becasue of how
poorly it is running), but that might be the next thing to try. Might
point towards the temperature sensor... or not...


__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"
 
Randy G. said:
My 240's performace is degrading, and I haven't even had it on teh
road for a week. Been trying to run down a problem, but no luck.

SYMPTOMS- it will start, rev to 2000 rpm, stay there for a bit, then
either die, or when warmed up a bit the RPM drops from teh 200 point
to about nil, baerely running, then revs agan, then drops, etc.
SOmetimes it "stabilizes at a round 100-1150rpm, and other tims
bumbles around 200rpm or so unless reved up a little. Revving the
motor seems to cause it to get lean, and repeatedly depressing and
releasing the motor gets it dunning to higher speed more smoothly, but
it is running rough. O2 sensor reporting the mixture incorrectly?

It is not in "limp" mde. I verified that by disconnecting the AMM and
starting the car. it ran in limp mode, and you could smell the
richness of the mixture. At that point it actually did set a "CHECK
ENGINE" light and post a 1-2-1 code. I turned off the car, reconnected
the AMM, cleared the code, and it was back to the original poor
running car, but it has not been posting an AMM fault (as it had been
in earlier posts).

I have checked the brake booster, and it holds vacuum for (literally)
hours. Cleaned the AMM and its contacts, cleaned the IAC and its
contacts, cleaned the contacts on the throttle position switch,
cleaned the.. well you get the idea. I also did the two tests on the
AMM as described in the Bentley.

At this point the frustration is such that if I could get it to drive
decently I would take it in to the mechanic I live about 30 rural
miles away).

I guess I am venting as much as looking for ideas... I suppose I can
open the throttle body and check the shaft seal, and I could do a
compression check just to make sure (but there is not excessive blowby
or crankcase pressure)..
Click to expand...

Do you have EGR ? Symptoms sound like a stuck open EGR valve??

Tim..
 
Randy G. said:
I don't think so- once it gets up in RPM (and greatly increased
exhaust volume) it runs OK- not great, but OK.
Click to expand...
That's just what a car I had, did, that's why I suggested it. After some
time as an asthmatic at higher revs it would not idle well, then finally
would not start.
 
Glenn Klein said:
What codes if any are present on A6 which is the Ignition Side
Did you check the fresh air pipe from the MAF sensor to the throttle
Body this hose does crack & may be a cause of your problem
Click to expand...

I have checked both the A2 and A6 codes numerous times and have gotten
no A6 codes, and with the A2 exceptions I have noted previously, none
are reported there either.

I have previously removed the hose from the MFA to throttle body and
shoved my florescent trouble light through it to look for leaks, and
found some very small wear spots, and only one showed any evidence of
leakage (about a 2-3 mm long, .5mm wide opening that only opened a bit
when the hose was stretched). I pactched all the thin spots with
plastic epoxy. I think I will remove the throttle body again to check
the shaft seal, and will check the hose again.

It would be a lot easier if the bad part just failed completely, or if
a code was posted.. Ughhhh... :-(

I threw a timing light on it today and the timing looked OK- advancing
when the throttle was opened to cause the RPMs to increase.

It does seem to run a bit better once it warms up than when it is
cold, but I haven't warmed it up all the way yet (becasue of how
poorly it is running), but that might be the next thing to try. Might
point towards the temperature sensor... or not...


__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"
 
Tim.. said:
Do you have EGR ? Symptoms sound like a stuck open EGR valve??
Click to expand...
Yes I do have EGR- will check that out... THANKS!


__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"
 
Tim.. said:
Do you have EGR ? Symptoms sound like a stuck open EGR valve??
Click to expand...

This morning I loosened the EGR pipe where it joins the intake
manifold and slipped in a piece of gasket material to cover the hole,
then retorqued the EGR pipe, effectively disabling the EGR system.
made no difference at all. :-(


__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"
 
Randy G. said:
This morning I loosened the EGR pipe where it joins the intake
manifold and slipped in a piece of gasket material to cover the hole,
then retorqued the EGR pipe, effectively disabling the EGR system.
made no difference at all. :-(
Click to expand...


Bugger L:(

Tim..
 
My 240's performace is degrading, and I haven't even had it on teh
road for a week. Been trying to run down a problem, but no luck.

SYMPTOMS- it will start, rev to 2000 rpm, stay there for a bit, then
either die, or when warmed up a bit the RPM drops from teh 200 point
to about nil, baerely running, then revs agan, then drops, etc.
SOmetimes it "stabilizes at a round 100-1150rpm, and other tims
bumbles around 200rpm or so unless reved up a little. Revving the
motor seems to cause it to get lean, and repeatedly depressing and
releasing the motor gets it dunning to higher speed more smoothly, but
it is running rough. O2 sensor reporting the mixture incorrectly?

It is not in "limp" mde. I verified that by disconnecting the AMM and
starting the car. it ran in limp mode, and you could smell the
richness of the mixture. At that point it actually did set a "CHECK
ENGINE" light and post a 1-2-1 code. I turned off the car, reconnected
the AMM, cleared the code, and it was back to the original poor
running car, but it has not been posting an AMM fault (as it had been
in earlier posts).

I have checked the brake booster, and it holds vacuum for (literally)
hours. Cleaned the AMM and its contacts, cleaned the IAC and its
contacts, cleaned the contacts on the throttle position switch,
cleaned the.. well you get the idea. I also did the two tests on the
AMM as described in the Bentley.

At this point the frustration is such that if I could get it to drive
decently I would take it in to the mechanic I live about 30 rural
miles away).

I guess I am venting as much as looking for ideas... I suppose I can
open the throttle body and check the shaft seal, and I could do a
compression check just to make sure (but there is not excessive blowby
or crankcase pressure)..

I did spray WD-40 about (around teh injectors, intake, throttle body,
etc., but found no leaks.

Computer coolant temperature sensor? There are no errors for it
posted. It is a bitch to get to and get out.. :-/

Arghhh...... I want my car back!


__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"
Click to expand...
When a motor surges up and down on its own it's usally the indication of
a vacuum leak. If you had the throttle housing off to clean it be sure
that it is refastened securely. If the bellows hose to the intake is not
split and the intake manifold gasket is intact everywhere front to rear,
and the hoses on the idle air control motor are secure, then the mass
airflow sensor is indeed faulty.

Bob
 
When a motor surges up and down on its own it's usally the indication of
a vacuum leak. If you had the throttle housing off to clean it be sure
that it is refastened securely. If the bellows hose to the intake is not
split and the intake manifold gasket is intact everywhere front to rear,
and the hoses on the idle air control motor are secure, then the mass
airflow sensor is indeed faulty.
Click to expand...


I appreciate the reply, Bob. If it is a vacuum leak I will need to
start seriously taking things apart including the intake manifold, but
I have checked all the intake manifold bolts for torque and the gasket
looks like it was replaced at one time and looks sound. The AMM is the
direction that my head is pointing as well.. I wish there was a more
accurate way to test the AMM other than the resistance test and the
burn-off function test, neither of which give any indication of
accuracy. I am going to contact a local acquaintance who knows a local
guy who use to be a Volvo mechanic and services out of his home now
(retired). He might have a spare AMM to loan or possibly a car to put
mine in to see if it works...

I am over 50, and have been servicing my own vehicles since the late
60's/early 70's. I also taught a basic auto repair class, and I was
always the guy who folks would stop by with the car and ask, "Could
you look at..." Same thing with their bicycles (I was a bicycle
mechanic, built my own wheels, raced, etc.). The complexity of
"modern" vehicles does not have me confused, but certainly frustrated.
WHen they run they run great, but when there is a problem it's not
like the "old days" when you replaced the points, coil, or plugs, or
maybe rebuilt a carb and all was well (unless you have Lucas electrics
and then nothing was ever right and you just got use to it).

Now, since all the systems are interrelated and tied into a computer,
any of a half dozen things can go wrong and the car runs badly in the
same way. So instead of just putting a test light across a set of
points you either need a computer, or in this case you need to find a
replacement for a $700 part ($300 rebuilt.. more or less). If I KNEW
that this part was bad it wouldn't be a problem spending the money,
but I am frugal enough to feel I a not ready for a $300 experiment
that doesn't involve twins and water-based lubricant.. And, no, they
don't HAVE to be twins... ;-)

If nothing else, by the time I finish all this I am going to know a
lot about this car!

__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"
 
Randy G. said:
My 240's performace is degrading, and I haven't even had it on teh
road for a week. Been trying to run down a problem, but no luck.

SYMPTOMS- it will start, rev to 2000 rpm, stay there for a bit, then
either die, or when warmed up a bit the RPM drops from teh 200 point
to about nil, baerely running, then revs agan, then drops, etc.
SOmetimes it "stabilizes at a round 100-1150rpm, and other tims
bumbles around 200rpm or so unless reved up a little. Revving the
motor seems to cause it to get lean, and repeatedly depressing and
releasing the motor gets it dunning to higher speed more smoothly, but
it is running rough. O2 sensor reporting the mixture incorrectly?

It is not in "limp" mde. I verified that by disconnecting the AMM and
starting the car. it ran in limp mode, and you could smell the
richness of the mixture. At that point it actually did set a "CHECK
ENGINE" light and post a 1-2-1 code. I turned off the car, reconnected
the AMM, cleared the code, and it was back to the original poor
running car, but it has not been posting an AMM fault (as it had been
in earlier posts).

I have checked the brake booster, and it holds vacuum for (literally)
hours. Cleaned the AMM and its contacts, cleaned the IAC and its
contacts, cleaned the contacts on the throttle position switch,
cleaned the.. well you get the idea. I also did the two tests on the
AMM as described in the Bentley.

At this point the frustration is such that if I could get it to drive
decently I would take it in to the mechanic I live about 30 rural
miles away).

I guess I am venting as much as looking for ideas... I suppose I can
open the throttle body and check the shaft seal, and I could do a
compression check just to make sure (but there is not excessive blowby
or crankcase pressure)..

I did spray WD-40 about (around teh injectors, intake, throttle body,
etc., but found no leaks.

Computer coolant temperature sensor? There are no errors for it
posted. It is a bitch to get to and get out.. :-/

Arghhh...... I want my car back!
Click to expand...


Did you check the distributor cap? My brother's car behaved very similarly
when the carbon button in the middle had broken.

Could also be a bad fuel pressure regulator or pump, or a blocked fuel line.
 
Now, since all the systems are interrelated and tied into a computer,
any of a half dozen things can go wrong and the car runs badly in the
same way. So instead of just putting a test light across a set of
points you either need a computer, or in this case you need to find a
replacement for a $700 part ($300 rebuilt.. more or less). If I KNEW
that this part was bad it wouldn't be a problem spending the money,
but I am frugal enough to feel I a not ready for a $300 experiment
that doesn't involve twins and water-based lubricant.. And, no, they
don't HAVE to be twins... ;-)
Click to expand...


Is there a U-pull yard near you? The local one I go to charges $34.99 for a
computer, cheap enough that it's not a bad idea to have a spare around.
 
James Sweet said:
Did you check the distributor cap? My brother's car behaved very similarly
when the carbon button in the middle had broken.
Click to expand...
I have replaced the cap, wires, and plugs. The rotor was lost in
shipment and ont the way.
Could also be a bad fuel pressure regulator or pump, or a blocked fuel line.
Click to expand...
It runs OK at higher RPMs- not correctly, mind you, but I thought
since it will hold a higher RPM that there should be sufficient fuel
to handle idle. FWIW, it also ran very rich in limp mode when I
disconnected the AMM. I don't have a proper high-pressure fuel
pressure gauge to check though..


__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"
 
James Sweet said:
Is there a U-pull yard near you? The local one I go to charges $34.99 for a
computer, cheap enough that it's not a bad idea to have a spare around.
Click to expand...

There is one but I haven't had a chance to get into town to see what
they have. It is a smallish yard, so I don't think I'll get lucky
there. Planning on dropping by there on Friday maybe... The closest
multi-acred Pick-n-Pull is about 90 miles away. :-(


__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"
 
Randy G. said:
There is one but I haven't had a chance to get into town to see what
they have. It is a smallish yard, so I don't think I'll get lucky
there. Planning on dropping by there on Friday maybe... The closest
multi-acred Pick-n-Pull is about 90 miles away. :-(
Click to expand...

Hmm, well if you want a computer and can't find one locally I'll look next
time I go to the yard, figure about 50 bucks shipped.
 
Randy G. said:
My 240's performace is degrading, and I haven't even had it on teh
road for a week. Been trying to run down a problem, but no luck.
Click to expand...

For the end of the story, see the thread:
It's RUNNING!


__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"
 
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