Which one of these cars are the safest, and which one should I get?

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The Diesel

I wish car manufacturers put roll bars in cars(made to protect from
roof collapse in a rollover and made in such a way as to not hurt the
driver or passengers in a side impact).
I wish car manufacturers would also use 4 point seat belts, and have
fire retardant fire shields around the fuel tank, as well as internal
fuel cell bladders like they have in professional race cars.

Back to the subject, my budget is at the most $12,000.
These are the cars I'm considering based on the Crash Test Ratings.

2001/2002 Honda Civic Coupe with Side Air Bags

1999/2000 Volvo S80

2003 Toyota Matrix with Side Air Bags

2003 Pontiac Vibe with Side Air Bags


These are cars that are really a little out of my range, but I'm still
looking out to see if maybe I'll get lucky and there will be a high
milage car in my price range.

2002 Lexus ES300 with Side Air Bags

2003 Honda Accord Coupe with Side Air Bags

2003 Saab 9-5 with Side Air Bags

2002 Acura MDX with Side Air Bags

There's one more car I wish I had more data about.
It's a high milage 1998 Lexus LS400, I know it does excellent in the
IIHS front offset crash test, and it does have side air bags, but
since there's no data about the side impact crash test or the rollover
resistance, unfortunately I don't think I could get it even if a high
milage one was in my price range.

I have provied links to the crash test results to many of these cars
throughout the post.

For me to even CONSIDER a car, it would have at least meet these
standards.
It would need at least 14 out of 15 stars in these 3 parts of the
crash tests.
1(Front Offset Crash Test Rating for the driver), 2(Side Impact Star
Rating for the Front Seats), and 3(Rollover Resistance).
Also, VERY IMPORTANTLY a car has to have a CENTER fuel tank, and NOT a
rear fuel tank like a Town Car or Mustang or Pinto or Crown Victoria.









Which car do you think is the safest car for that money?
I know that the obvious choice would be a 1999/2000 Volvo S80, but
when you do a lot of research, you realize that the 1999/2000 Volvo
S80 may not be as safe as you think.
First of all the Volvo S80 is a pretty unreliable car from what I've
read, but to me safety is SO important that even reliability and fuel
economy have to take a back seat to safety.
What I'm MOST concerned about ever being in a serious car accident
even more than death, is getting paralyzed or getting burned so badly
that you look like an alien and you look much worse than a Klingon or
a Reptilian Xindi.
I've seen burn victims on tv, that only wish they looked like a
Klingon or Reptilian Xindi instead of what they look like.
I'm really quite concerned about the rollover ratings, because the
other day I saw a show called something like "The Science of Crash
Tests" on The Discovery Science Channel, and they showed how a guy got
paralyzed with his Ford F-150 rolled over in an accident.
Then they actually did a rollover test of a Ford F-150 and also of a
Volvo SUV.
The F-150s roof COMPLETELY collapsed and if there was a person inside,
he/she would have been paralyzed if not dead.
The Volvo SUVs roof pretty much held its shape even after it rolled
over and over again.
That's one of the main reasons which I like the Volvo S80, I have a
feeling that even though the rollover rating for the 1999/2000 Volvo
S80 are not given, that the 1999/2000 Volvo S80 may likely have a 5
star rollover resistance rating if it were tested.
I also feel that I'm correct in thinking that probably the roof of the
1999/2000 Volvo S80 has a lot of structural reenforcement to prevent
it from collapsing in a rollover crash.

I wish I could get the Toyota Matrix, but it looks just so tall and so
narrow, that I almost feel it's very likely to rollover in a side
impact or in a high speed turn.
If the Toyota Matrix was Short and Wide, then it would be the perfect
car for me as it would have a 5 star rollover rating instead of 4
stars, and it's reliable and has good fuel economy as well, but
because it only has a 4 star rating in the rollover resistance test,
I'm leaning against it.


Actually first I thought I'd get a 2001 Honda Civic Coupe with Side
Air Bags since it did pretty well in the crash tests, it had great
reliability, and it had great fuel economy as well, but my dad
basically made it clear that I would not be getting that car even
though I was going to buy it with my own money.
My dad said that since it only weighs 2500lbs, that it's an unsafe car
and the crash tests are all lies and propoganda so that the car
companies can get rich.
BTW, my dad drives a 2000 Lincoln Town Car, which in my opinon is a
LESS safe car than the Honda Civic Coupe with Side Airbags because of
its crash test results and the Lincoln Town Car's higher death rate,
its poor accident avoidance capability, and the FATAL flaw in the
Lincoln Town Car, it's REAR FUEL TANK which could rupture in a high
speed rear accident.
Well after my dad refused to allow me to get the Honda Civic, I
started looking at the 1999/2000 Volvo S80, and at first I was all set
on buying it, but then I realized that it's a very unreliable car and
that it would be in the shop a lot if I bought it.
I did think twice, but then I thought that safety is so important that
I could live with unreliability.
I then however discovered that maybe the 1999/2000 Volvo S80 is NOT as
safe a car as I had thought.
It's true that it did great in the NHTSA Side Impact Crash Tests, but
it was never tested in the Front Offset or Rollover Crash Tests by the
NHTSA so you don't get the whole picture.
1999 Volvo S80 NHTSA Crash Test
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/Cars/804.html
To get the whole picture, I did a lot of research and I found the
results for the IIHS Front Offset Crash test, and the NCAP Crash Tests
for the 2000 Volvo S80.
I was Shocked that the 2000 Volvo S80 didn't do perfect in the IIHS
Front Offset Crash test, as you can see, the 2000 Volvo S80 did pretty
poorly in the Restraints/dummy kinematics category.
2000 Volvo S80 IIHS Crash Test
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/00007.htm

I found it almost mindboggling that Volvos Flagship Sedan(which I
previously thought to be the safest car of the 20th century)basically
got a D in the NCAP Front Offset Crash Test, but it got a B(85%)
overall because it got an A+ in the Side Impact NCAP Crash Test.
2000 Volvo S80 NCAP Crash TEST
http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/details.php?id1=4&id2=55
Could it be true that a Volvo could produce a car that was so unsafe
in the front offset crash after all the money and research and hard
work they put into producing their flagship model?

I wish I could afford the 2001 Volvo S80 since that got 5 stars in the
NHTSA Front Offset Crash test, while the 2000 Volvo S80 was untested
for the Front Offset test, but unfortunately the 2001 S80 is out of my
price range.



One of 2 things have to be true, either the 1999/2000 Volvo S80 is a
VERY SAFE CAR and the NCAP are LYING and bias against Volvo, or
1999/2000 Volvo S80 is perhaps the most overrated car ever in safety.

There actually is some circumstancial evidence that the NCAP may
actually be bias agaisnt Volvo or something.
I mean look at how the 1998 Volvo S70 does excellent in the NHTSA
Front Offset Crash Test.
1998 Volvo S70 NHTSA Crash Test
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/Cars/671.html

Shockingly the same car the 1998 Volvo S70 does HORRIBLE(an F)in the
NCAP Front Offset Crash Test.
1998 Volvo S70 NCAP Crash Test
http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/details.php?id1=4&id2=54

After looking at all the results, 1 of 3 things must be true.
Either the NHTSA is bias in favor of Volvo, The NCAP is bias against
Volvo, or a North American 1998 Volvo S70 is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT
structurally than a 1998 European Volvo S70.





2003 Pontiac Vibe NHTSA Crash Test
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/Cars/2150.html


2003 Toyota Matrix NHTSA Crash Test
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/Cars/2149.html

2001 Honda Civic Coupe NHTSA Crash Test
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/Cars/1689.html

1995-2000 Lexus LS400 IIHS Crash Test
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/96031.htm


2000 Lincoln Town Car NHTSA Crash Test
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/Cars/1003.html
 
I don't know where you are going to get any of those cars for the money you
have to spend... at least not around here (Ontario) you would.

I'd say the S80 Volvo would be the best car out of that group... As it is
large in mass, and has a full set of safety systems... Those 5 star tests
have to be taken with a grain of salt too.... If you crash at higher then
35mph it's been seen that Volvo's tend to do really well... Case in point,
Volvo 240's don't have 5 star safety ratings from what I have seen, but do
phenomenal in bad accidents... Golfs/Jetta's from their A2 era (1985-1992)
don't score 5 starts, but are excellent cars in rollovers and in most
impacts at higher speeds... And you didn't mention the new Golf/Jetta - they
get 5 stars front, side...
 
That $12,000 you want to spend will probably cover the cost of
getting those things you mentioned added to any car, AFTER you
buy the car of course. ;)


mike hunt
 
The Diesel wrote:
Click to expand...

Snipped war and peace...
rest assure if you go through this much thought process to buy a car you
will be hit by a mack truck at an intersection and it eon't matter what car
you bought. Every car you mentioned is very safe. Buy the one you like and
drive for petes sake.

Brad
 
The Diesel said:
I wish car manufacturers put roll bars in cars(made to protect from
roof collapse in a rollover and made in such a way as to not hurt the
driver or passengers in a side impact).
I wish car manufacturers would also use 4 point seat belts, and have
fire retardant fire shields around the fuel tank, as well as internal
fuel cell bladders like they have in professional race cars.
Click to expand...

<SNIP>

I wish roads were banked on all turns so I could take them at higher speeds.
I also wish someone at work was there to give me a fresh bottle of milk
every time I broke a speed record getting to work.
 
I wish roads were banked on all turns so I could take them at higher speeds.

But everyone knows that cars with suspension set for the US market don't
go round corners. :)

It amuses me when I see signs on US on/off ramps that indicate that the
maximum speed is 20 mph or whatever, that's a 60 mph bend here.

David.
 
The said:
I wish car manufacturers [...]
Click to expand...

You are focusing on the right thing, car safety. Roughly
half of the costs of road traffic is caused by injuries
and deaths, and it is smart to consider it as the main
factor in buying a car. None of the cars are "safe", some
are only less dangerous than other.

Probably the best place to look at is in insurance records.
Some cars have strange qualities that keep them away from
harm's way, and you may be able to spot them from the
records.

Highway loss data institute publishes these records every
now and then. It is sponsored by insurance companies and
I suppose that their main interest is to guide the consumers
to buy cars that produce less insuries, and less reimbursement.
However, it is common sense to compare these records with other
results, such as the crashworthiness tests by various car
manufacturers and various institutions.

http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/ictl.htm
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/ictl_lux.htm

There are .pdf files for different years. Look for the range
of years in the age group that your are looking in. The
results for different years can be different if the models
have been changed.

Make sure that the centerpoint of the gravity is low. You
do not want to roll over in the car in highway speeds.
 
Rob Guenther said:
I don't know where you are going to get any of those cars for the money you
have to spend... at least not around here (Ontario) you would.
Click to expand...

Well, I did say that some of the cars were a little out of my price
range, but these 4 used cars can certainly be gotten for under $12,000
American dollars if you don't mind a car with a few miles on it.

2001/2002 Honda Civic Coupe with Side Air Bags

1999/2000 Volvo S80

2003 Toyota Matrix with Side Air Bags

2003 Pontiac Vibe with Side Air Bags

I'd say the S80 Volvo would be the best car out of that group... As it is
large in mass, and has a full set of safety systems... Those 5 star tests
have to be taken with a grain of salt too.... If you crash at higher then
35mph it's been seen that Volvo's tend to do really well... Case in point,
Volvo 240's don't have 5 star safety ratings from what I have seen, but do
phenomenal in bad accidents...
Click to expand...

Well, I did forget to mention one thing, but there are also 3 other
negatives about the 1999/2000 Volvo S80 that I forgot to mention.
In the IIHS front offset crash test, the gasses that came out of the
front airbag were VERY HOT, they were so hot that they melted the
hands of the dummy.
I guess wearing driving gloves just in case is a good idea if you
drive a 1999/2000 Volvo S80, I think that Volvo did fix that problem
in the 2001 and later models.
The 2nd problem was that the airbags in the 1999/2000 deployed even in
VERY minor low speed crashes, again this problem too was probably
fixed in the 2001 and later models.
The 3rd problem with the 1999/2000 Volvo S80 was that in the front
offset crash test, after the first impact of the dummy's head with the
front airbag, the head bounced backwards and hit the B pillar instead
of hitting the headrest.
I don't know if this problem has been fixed in the 2001 and newer
models, but it may have been.
Even after all that being said and with the reliability reputation
that the S80 has, I'm still leaning towards it.




Golfs/Jetta's from their A2 era (1985-1992)
don't score 5 starts, but are excellent cars in rollovers and in most
impacts at higher speeds... And you didn't mention the new Golf/Jetta - they
get 5 stars front, side...
Click to expand...

Well, Golfs, Jettas, and Passats certainly are among the safest cars
out there and I think the Passat was named one of the 5 safest cars
ever in 2001.
The 2004 Jetta with Side Air Bags for example got 22 out out of 25
total stars which is probably better than 99% of the cars out there,
but first of all I can't afford the new one, and the main reason I
didn't include the Jetta or Golf on my cars to consider was that they
got 4 stars in the side impact for the front seat.
Now I'll have to look at the numbers more carefully since not all 4
stars are created equal, some 4 stars are actually like a 4.8 star,
while other 4 stars are like a 4.0 star.
For example when I look at the numbers for the rollover resistance of
the 2003 Honda Accord Coupe, it says it's 4 stars, but when you
actually look at the numbers, it's actually more like 4.8 or 4.9
stars, while the Toyota Matrix also got 4 stars in the rollover
resistance test, but the Matrix got more like 4.0 stars when you look
closely at the numbers.
The 2003 Honda Accord Coupe got a Static Stability Factor or 1.44,
while the Toyota Matrix got a Static Stabiliy Factor of 1.30, yet they
both got a 4 star rollover resistance rating, if the Accord had gotten
a SSF rating of 1.45, then it would have gotten 5 stars in rollover
resistance.

I'll have to look closely at the numbers and see if I'm overlooking
some of the cars that I should be considering because they got a 4.9
star instead of a 5.0 star.
I think they have to start changing the whole star system to smaller
increments to show a more accurate view of the actual data.
 
David said:
But everyone knows that cars with suspension set for the US market
don't go round corners. :)
Click to expand...
Don't "go round" corners? Or don't "do" round corners? Or maybe it's
"don't go around corners"! ROFL
 
But everyone knows that cars with suspension set for the US market don't
go round corners. :)

It amuses me when I see signs on US on/off ramps that indicate that the
maximum speed is 20 mph or whatever, that's a 60 mph bend here.

David.
Click to expand...

LOL

It amuses me when people buy BMW's in the US. You can't drive a BMW
in America!

I owned one in Spain and drove it all over Europe. Now that is a good
place to drive a BMW.

Here, my '92 Corolla is just fine for those '20 mph' off ramp...LOL
 
Don't "go round" corners? Or don't "do" round corners? Or maybe it's
"don't go around corners"! ROFL
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's the one, it was early, kids got us up too early and my
brain wasn't fully engaged and in sync with the vocab/grammar module. :)
 
I owned one in Spain and drove it all over Europe. Now that is a good
place to drive a BMW.
Click to expand...

I was taking a US visit down an English country lane (single track) at
the usual and legal 60mph, the knuckles were going white on his hands
and he asked "is this a two way street?" (street not really being the
right word but that didn't matter),

I said "sure!"

He said "what happens when someone comes the other way?"

To which I said "well, we try and miss each other!"

:)

Add the usual 90 degree first/second gear corners and *that's* what
makes for an enjoyable drive.

It's interesting to note the level of interest and discussion about roll
over accidents. I can't think of that being a major issue at all in the
UK. Is that down to stiffer suspension, smaller, lower cars instead of
the prevalence of SUV's? Or just that people don't tend to be T boned
at large intersections in the same way?

David.
 
The safest car is the one that doesn't have guys like these people driving
them.

RS
 
It's interesting to note the level of interest and discussion about roll
over accidents. I can't think of that being a major issue at all in the
UK.
Click to expand...

It's not in the USA either. Very few cars roll over. Some SUV's do but
that's because the drivers think they're in a car. The OP is way
to concerned about things that rarely happen.
 
Salutations:

It's interesting to note the level of interest and discussion about roll
over accidents. I can't think of that being a major issue at all in the
UK. Is that down to stiffer suspension, smaller, lower cars instead of
the prevalence of SUV's? Or just that people don't tend to be T boned
at large intersections in the same way?

David.
Click to expand...

Hey brother David - the issue over here is the *extensive* system of 75mph
(which everyone drives at 80-85mph) high crested highways on fairly steep
embankments.

For the most part you have to sets of two lanes separated and surrounded
by about 8 feet of gravel shoulder followed by 5-10 feet of deep wet
ditch. Not a lot of guard rail unless you are crossing bridges or on an
older highway.

Once you are across a shoulder, it is most likely you are rolling over as
your machine digs into the muck and gravel that makes up the embankment.
It matters not what you are driving.

The upside is that you car isn't solidly hitting a run of rail (which the
driver is liable for in Canada) and you mostly come to sliding stop on the
roof rather than anything really sudden (at least in the SAAB). The
downside is that once you are over the shoulder - you are committed to the
whole rather exciting trip.

As to SUV's - I've owned one and needed it when I had it, they are as bad
or good as the wetware. I'm more ticked they managed to get the bumper
height rules changed several years ago and now all new cars are legislated
for side curtain airbags (several hundred dollars a pop) as a result.

--

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The safest car is the one that doesn't have guys like these people driving
them.
Click to expand...

You don't know shit about how I drive so shut the **** up.

But you'd be correct had you said that the safest car is the one that
doesn't move at all.
 
It's not in the USA either. Very few cars roll over. Some SUV's do but
that's because the drivers think they're in a car. The OP is way
to concerned about things that rarely happen.
Click to expand...

Thank you, that's what I figured.
 
Jyrki Alakuijala said:
The said:
I wish car manufacturers [...]
Click to expand...

You are focusing on the right thing, car safety. Roughly
half of the costs of road traffic is caused by injuries
and deaths, and it is smart to consider it as the main
factor in buying a car. None of the cars are "safe", some
are only less dangerous than other.

Probably the best place to look at is in insurance records.
Some cars have strange qualities that keep them away from
harm's way, and you may be able to spot them from the
records.

Highway loss data institute publishes these records every
now and then. It is sponsored by insurance companies and
I suppose that their main interest is to guide the consumers
to buy cars that produce less insuries, and less reimbursement.
However, it is common sense to compare these records with other
results, such as the crashworthiness tests by various car
manufacturers and various institutions.

http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/ictl.htm
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/ictl_lux.htm
Click to expand...
Interesting idea, but it's biased. For example safe drivers probably
choose certain models over others. So those models are involved in
many less accidents, but it's the driver not the car.

I thought German cars had roof protection in a rollover...the side
beams were made stiffer? At one point this was going to be a
requirement in the US, but it was canceled. German car makers had
already figured out how to add it cheaply. This info is from an old
"60 minutes".

Anyway, look for rollovers and side impact. And also it's very
important WHEN you drive. Don't drive from Sat. night 9pm to Sunday
morning 7am, and you'll avoid alot of drunks.

Also is the 12K US$ or Canadien? Big difference.
 
The Diesel said:
I wish car manufacturers put roll bars in cars(made to protect from
roof collapse in a rollover and made in such a way as to not hurt the
driver or passengers in a side impact).
I wish car manufacturers would also use 4 point seat belts, and have
fire retardant fire shields around the fuel tank, as well as internal
fuel cell bladders like they have in professional race cars.
Click to expand...

Criminy, why don't you just hang around NASCAR events and see if you can
pick up a "fixer-upper" they drag off the track every now and then ...
probably doesn't fit your MPG criteria and then there's those touchy
problems with DOT to contend with.

Good fantasizin' to ya,
VLJ
--
 
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