1989 740 16 valve timing belt broke... :(

[rfenergy]

Hello,

I am very depressed. My timing belt broke (B234F 16V) today, while I
was going to get a
spring compressor to change my front struts.

I was driving very slow, less than 10 MPH, and my car stops running.
I tried to start the car and it sounded funny. So my friend came to
help and said, what about the timing belt? I removed the belt cover
and there it was, totally broken.

The belt was done at 100,000 miles in 1998 ( I have documentation and
sticker was on the Belt cover ), the belt was a Volvo part ( it said
Volvo on the broken belt ), the car has only 146,850 miles on it.

I am thinking that this is early failure of this part. I was going to
get it done in the next few weeks, but wanted to get new struts and
shocks in first.

Is it possible that Volvo is liable for this failure?

Is it possible that the Valves are not damaged, because of the slow
speed at which the belt failed?

What is the worst case ( cost, damage )???

I really like this car and it is in very good shape.

I am very depressed, I have not had the car 4 months yet.

Thank You,

Robert W.

 

[AJS]

I think you will find belts are listed as distance OR time. From memory but
pretty sure I am correct.



AJS

 

[Brick_0]

Hello,

I am very depressed. My timing belt broke (B234F 16V) today, while I
was going to get a
spring compressor to change my front struts.

I was driving very slow, less than 10 MPH, and my car stops running.
I tried to start the car and it sounded funny. So my friend came to
help and said, what about the timing belt? I removed the belt cover
and there it was, totally broken.

The belt was done at 100,000 miles in 1998 ( I have documentation and
sticker was on the Belt cover ), the belt was a Volvo part ( it said
Volvo on the broken belt ), the car has only 146,850 miles on it.

I am thinking that this is early failure of this part. I was going to
get it done in the next few weeks, but wanted to get new struts and
shocks in first.

Is it possible that Volvo is liable for this failure?

Probably not. Most shops warranty service and parts for 90 days.

I would replace the idler pulley(s) and the belt. A bad pulley could allow
the belt to slip off. At least check the pulleys and tensioner carefully for
any wear.


Brick_0

 

[Bev A. Kupf]

Ouch. However, you might be in luck. My recollection is that the
B230 and derivatives like the B234 are not interference engines. So
there should be no engine damage, although you tried to start the
engine with the belt broken.

I was wrong. The B230 engines are not interference, but the B234F is
an interference design. You will have had piston and valve collision,
and the resulting damage. This will likely be an expensive repair.

Bev

 

[Peter Milnes]

Sorry Bev, but the 16-valvers ARE interference fit engines (applies to B204 and
B234 engines). "rfenergy" both cambelt and balance shaft belt need to be
replaced at same time. The replacement interval is every 50,000 miles. If the
one that broke is older than that mileage, then that will be partly why it
broke. Check water pump bearings and both camshafts for freedom of rotation. A
camshaft that has seized it's bearings is enough shock load to break the belt.
The balance shaft side must be OK if the belt for that didn't break.

Cheers, Peter.


: On 13 Jul 2003 06:22:00 -0700,
: rfenergy ([email protected]) wrote:
:
: > I am very depressed. My timing belt broke (B234F 16V) today, while I
: > was going to get a
: > spring compressor to change my front struts.
: >
: > I was driving very slow, less than 10 MPH, and my car stops running.
: > I tried to start the car and it sounded funny. So my friend came to
: > help and said, what about the timing belt? I removed the belt cover
: > and there it was, totally broken.
:
: Ouch. However, you might be in luck. My recollection is that the
: B230 and derivatives like the B234 are not interference engines. So
: there should be no engine damage, although you tried to start the
: engine with the belt broken.
:
: Install a new belt -- you should be good to go.
:
: If the old belt was installed at a Volvo authorized service center (such
: as a dealer), you should contact them -- they may help you out if the
: belt.
:
: Good luck,
: Bev
: --
: Bev A. Kupf
: Bev's House of Pancakes

 

[Bev A. Kupf]

I guess I missed the time part (of the recommended time & miles to
replace timing belt) in the manual, where is this listed? How many
years?

One place that you can find the information is at:
http://www.owners.volvocars.com
(you will have to register). I just looked up the service schedule
for a B234F engine, and timing belt changes are recommended every
50,000 miles. It doesn't say 50,000 miles of three years -- just
50,000 miles. Several other things on the service schedule are
listed as "miles or time" ....

Anyway, according to that site, Volvo warranties parts for just
12 months, so I think you're out of luck trying to get your Volvo
service center to pay for the repairs.

So, does anyone think that there is any valve damage?

Almost certainly. But if you didn't try too hard to start it, the
damage may be minimal.

I panicked and started looking up rebuilt engines for my B234F 740.
They seem to be going for around $2300.00 to $2800.00.

Shop around -- I'm sure you can find cheaper engines. There's a couple
B230Fs on eBay with the starting bid at $97. Also check at Erie VoVo
(http://www.erievovo.com) -- you'll find a good deal on a working engine
recovered from a wreck. Erie VoVo check the parts the sell for function.

Should I pull the head and see if the valves are toast?

I think you should. Don't get nervous -- although it is hard not to.
There are cheaper alternatives to a rebuilt engine for $2000+

Bev

 

[Steve J.]

I panicked and started looking up rebuilt engines for my B234F 740.
They seem to be going for around $2300.00 to $2800.00.

Look on Ebay Motors, I have seen the b230f for a lot less that that!
Plus wrecking yards have 740 Volvos which had the b230f. You might not
be as bad off as it seems right now.

 

[Mike F]

I do know a good shop in Michigan called, Swedish Engineering, they
are really good, but pricey (not as horrific as a dealer though).
How much worst case and/or average case, would the damage be?
How much would be a fair price?

I panicked and started looking up rebuilt engines for my B234F 740.
They seem to be going for around $2300.00 to $2800.00.

Should I pull the head and see if the valves are toast?
Should I get a rebuilt engine?

I am a nervous wreck, I can't decide.

Please advise, Thank you again to everyone who has replied to my post.

Sincerely,

Robert W.

As Volvowrench says, you at least have bent valves. I've seen several
of these with broken timing belts, and never seen one that needed
anything other than valves. It should be a simple matter of pulling the
head, replacing bent valves (and anything else worn like guides as
necessary) and putting it back together with new seals. Generally these
belts don't fail early, so make sure all tensioners and guide pulleys
are OK, and you should also change the balance shaft belt while you're
in there.

 

[rfenergy]

Mike F. wrote...

As Volvowrench says, you at least have bent valves. I've seen several
of these with broken timing belts, and never seen one that needed
anything other than valves. It should be a simple matter of pulling the
head, replacing bent valves (and anything else worn like guides as
necessary) and putting it back together with new seals. Generally these
belts don't fail early, so make sure all tensioners and guide pulleys
are OK, and you should also change the balance shaft belt while you're
in there.

Thank you everyone again.

I have the removed the intake and exhaust manifolds and valve cover,
but I am having trouble getting to the head bolts it semmes that the
cam shafts must be removed using some method I am not 100% about.

Can anyone tell me how to remove the head without screwing it up???

I have done motorcycle heads, but this one seems to be attached in a
fashion that I am unfamiliar with.

Thank You,

Robert W.

 

[Alex Zepeda]

I have the removed the intake and exhaust manifolds and valve cover,
but I am having trouble getting to the head bolts it semmes that the
cam shafts must be removed using some method I am not 100% about.

I'd suggest you find someone familiar with the 16V Volvos, and then find
some of the Volvo manuals... and only then proceed to take the engine
apart.

Someone who knows the 960s or the FWD Volvos may very well be able to lend
some of that goopy stuff you'll need to seal it all back together as well
as some helpful advice.

It's not nearly as simple as the 8V red block.

At the very least, take a look over at the 700/900 FAQ on the Brickboard.
They've got some 16V information.

P.S. The next time you do a timing belt on the 16V engine, make sure to
replace the oil pump bolt(s). Failure of this will result in the
destruction of the timing belt.

- alex

'85 244 Turbo
'84 245 Turbo

 

[rfenergy]

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 13:50:40 -0700, rfenergy wrote:


I'd suggest you find someone familiar with the 16V Volvos, and then find
some of the Volvo manuals... and only then proceed to take the engine
apart.

Someone who knows the 960s or the FWD Volvos may very well be able to lend
some of that goopy stuff you'll need to seal it all back together as well
as some helpful advice.

It's not nearly as simple as the 8V red block.

At the very least, take a look over at the 700/900 FAQ on the Brickboard.
They've got some 16V information.

P.S. The next time you do a timing belt on the 16V engine, make sure to
replace the oil pump bolt(s). Failure of this will result in the
destruction of the timing belt.

- alex

'85 244 Turbo
'84 245 Turbo

Thank You Alex,
But,I just need to know how to take the head off.
So I can look at the piston tops to make sure they are not trashed.
I will then take the head to my Volvo only repair shop to
re-build/replace valves guides etc. as suggested by volvowrench. The
mechanic at the shop will then put all the parts back together and put
in a new timing belt.

I read about replacing the oil pump bolt(s) on the brickboard, but I
am sort of reluctant to believe this info ( I don't think that you
need to remove oil pump bolts to put a timing belt in, if you don't
remove those bolts, how can they wearout? or break?), I talked my
Volvo repair shop (swedish engeering in MI) and they have never heard
of this, they said they would be happy to replace it if I wanted them
too.
Brickboard has been a good place to learn alot, but I have not seen an
FAQ on 16V head removal. I can't find anything about 16V head removal
anywhere.


If anyone knows how to take the head off of the B234F 16 Valve, please
let me know.

Thank You,

Robert W.

 

[Mike F]

Thank You Alex,
But,I just need to know how to take the head off.
So I can look at the piston tops to make sure they are not trashed.
I will then take the head to my Volvo only repair shop to
re-build/replace valves guides etc. as suggested by volvowrench. The
mechanic at the shop will then put all the parts back together and put
in a new timing belt.

I read about replacing the oil pump bolt(s) on the brickboard, but I
am sort of reluctant to believe this info ( I don't think that you
need to remove oil pump bolts to put a timing belt in, if you don't
remove those bolts, how can they wearout? or break?), I talked my
Volvo repair shop (swedish engeering in MI) and they have never heard
of this, they said they would be happy to replace it if I wanted them
too.
Brickboard has been a good place to learn alot, but I have not seen an
FAQ on 16V head removal. I can't find anything about 16V head removal
anywhere.

If anyone knows how to take the head off of the B234F 16 Valve, please
let me know.

Thank You,

Robert W.

After you remove the camshafts (and maybe a few other bolts) you can
remove the top half of the head. Then you can see the head bolts, and
remove the rest of the head. There is no gasket between the halves of
the head, sealing is done by liquid sealer. If you don't want oil leaks
after this job is finished, make sure reassembly is done by someone
familiar with this procedure.

 

[rfenergy]

After you remove the camshafts (and maybe a few other bolts) you can
remove the top half of the head. Then you can see the head bolts, and
remove the rest of the head. There is no gasket between the halves of
the head, sealing is done by liquid sealer. If you don't want oil leaks
after this job is finished, make sure reassembly is done by someone
familiar with this procedure.

Thank You Mike F. and Bev.

I removed the head without fu$kin anything up.
I have 4 bent valves on the exhaust side of cylinders 2 and 4.

The pistons are not cracked nor do they have any holes in the top of
them.

I guess I lucked out a bit.

I put each part in it's own little pouch (made from 2 sheets of heavy
printer paper and staples) and documented exactly the place where it
came from on each pouch.

I am sending the car with the head and all parts in the trunk, to
swedish engineering in Ann Arbor,MI. They were kind enough to agree to
put humpty dumpty back together again for me, even though most shops
would never finish a job someone else started.

I was thinking that while the head is going to get repaired why not
just do all the valves, valveguides, and seals while it's apart. Does
anyone think this is a wise idea? My brother in-law told me to do
this, he is a diesel mechanic.
They also agreed to have the head done through the parts dept., so I
can save some money on the valves, etc.

Thank you everyone one who has helped me.

I hope that after it is all put back together, that it will run as
good or if not better than before.

I will post a follow up to the repair and let everyone know how the
repair went and how the car is running. I have read many posts, where
there is never a follow up, it really bugs me.

Sincerely,

Robert W.

p.s. if anyone likes rock/pop music check out my mp3 site, there are a
few free songs up. www.mp3.com/rfenergy

 

[Mike F]

Thank You Mike F. and Bev.

I removed the head without fu$kin anything up.
I have 4 bent valves on the exhaust side of cylinders 2 and 4.

The pistons are not cracked nor do they have any holes in the top of
them.

I guess I lucked out a bit.

I put each part in it's own little pouch (made from 2 sheets of heavy
printer paper and staples) and documented exactly the place where it
came from on each pouch.

I am sending the car with the head and all parts in the trunk, to
swedish engineering in Ann Arbor,MI. They were kind enough to agree to
put humpty dumpty back together again for me, even though most shops
would never finish a job someone else started.

I was thinking that while the head is going to get repaired why not
just do all the valves, valveguides, and seals while it's apart. Does
anyone think this is a wise idea? My brother in-law told me to do
this, he is a diesel mechanic.
They also agreed to have the head done through the parts dept., so I
can save some money on the valves, etc.

Thank you everyone one who has helped me.

I hope that after it is all put back together, that it will run as
good or if not better than before.

I will post a follow up to the repair and let everyone know how the
repair went and how the car is running. I have read many posts, where
there is never a follow up, it really bugs me.

Sincerely,

Robert W.

p.s. if anyone likes rock/pop music check out my mp3 site, there are a
few free songs up. www.mp3.com/rfenergy

While the head is off, it's a good idea check all valve guides (there no
need to replace any that aren't worn), and lap in the valves if
necessary. Also it's a good idea to renew all rubber parts (valve
seals, cam seals).

 

[rfenergy]

Sorry I didn't get to you sooner. I have a good 16 valve head for that
engine. My block cracked. I replaced the whole engine for $3,000. I have
the head from the old one in good shape.

Brian

Thank you Brian, Do you have the ECU? Is the ECU is perfect order?

If so I may need one...

This is for everyone who helped me...A follow up...

I got my car back on 8/14/03, Is cost $2,400.00. This was to replace
the 4 bent exhaust valves, valve seals, a new water pump, timing belt,
balance shaft belt,labor,thermostat,etc.

I am not happy with how the car is running now...It idles very rough,
it chugs, you can feel it when you idling and in park, and also in
drive or reverse or neutral.

The car had a subtle surge about 50 rpm, but smooth, before the valve
damage and repair, now it just plain sucks.

I bought a new AMM (after doing the plug and unplug test), thinking
that this may help, no difference or change.

Also, the shop did not do a compression test after putting the top end
together.
I was kind of pissed that they did not do this, it seems to be such a
basic to do after a re-build.

The car has a new O2 sensor,TPS,CTS,IAC (IAC hoses),air filter,RPM
sensor,clean throttle body, new oil trap and flame trap, new plugs,
cap, rotor, wires.

What could be wrong??? ECU? Ignition module?

I am very dissapointed and pissed off with the shop I brought my car
to. How could they let it roll out of there running like shit? The
mechanic did note on the receipt that the car has a rough idle. He
said, he told the service manager, and no one got back to him about
whether something should be done about. Seems pretty lame to me. WTF?

I spent $2,400.00 and I want to drive a car that runs like shit. Yeah
that's why I let them put the head back on. I am thinking that I
should have done the job myself.

Thank You,

Robert W.

 

[G Klein]

I understand what you are saying but I would call the
shop up & speak to the service manger & explain that
for the large amount of money you spent the way the car
was given to you is unacceptable & ask to have the car
repaired correctly for the kind of money you were
charged you should have gotten an exchange cylinder
head from either Volvo or a good engine rebuilder
personally when I get a car that has thrown the timing
belt 16V engines or any of the new engines we always
install a exchange less labor & less problems let us
know what happens with your phone call
Glenn

 

[William Liao]

I remember my mechanic once told me that it's actually cheaper to replace
the whole cylinder head than to repair the broken valves on an interference
engine when the timing belt snaps... this was for an 850, I'm guessing that
the B234F engine shouldn't be much different...
_________________
Will
'90 Volvo 744 GLT (B230F) - daily driver
'73 Volvo 164E - awaiting repair & restoration

 

[rfenergy]

I understand what you are saying but I would call the
shop up & speak to the service manger & explain that
for the large amount of money you spent the way the car
was given to you is unacceptable & ask to have the car
repaired correctly for the kind of money you were
charged you should have gotten an exchange cylinder
head from either Volvo or a good engine rebuilder
personally when I get a car that has thrown the timing
belt 16V engines or any of the new engines we always
install a exchange less labor & less problems let us
know what happens with your phone call
Glenn

Thank You Glenn.

So, I should have got a reconditioned head?
Do you think that the re-build of my 16V head is causing the idle
problem?
I think that they said something about a reman head, if the head in my
car was too damaged to bother with re-building. They told me it would
be cheaper to re-build my head vs a re-man head so I told them to do
it. Maybe I made a mistake?Or they made a mistake.
Do you think I paid too much money?
I sent them the car with the head off, they sent it to a machine shop
and then reassembled the top end.
I brought it back to them, dropped it off last night. I hope to hear
something tommorow or the next day.

Thank You for your consideration.


Sincerely,

Robert W.