1990 740 Turbo and other issues

[jimb]

Good day all

I am currently looking at a 1990 740 B230 Turbo with M46 4speed w/ O/D
purchase and I have a couple of questions.

Car has 158K miles and has been well taken care of. One owner,
complete records. Spotless body and interior is like new. Timing belt
within 30K miles. Dealer serviced mostly. Seems to run and drive well.

It has a couple of issues however.

R12 A/C also does not work (seized compressor most likely, belt
missing). NBD

The biggest one is the Turbo does not work. Boost gage gets to the
yellow line but goes no further.

Additional information:

For the last couple of years the car has sat for long periods with
only occasional trips around town to keep battery up etc.

Questions:

What is the normal failure mode for the Turbo?
Could sitting around create problems?
What impact does driving the car without it functioning have? Fuel
economy etc?

I want to use this car as a jumping off point for a "forever car" and
I would be reluctant to see it slip away.

Asking price is rather high considering the Turbo and A/C.

Thoughts?

TIA

jimB

 

[James Sweet]

What is the normal failure mode for the Turbo?
Could sitting around create problems?
What impact does driving the car without it functioning have? Fuel
economy etc?

Usually the oil seals fail, but it sounds as if the impeller may have
seized, you can verify this by removing the intake hose and trying to
spin the shaft with your fingers. I suppose sitting around could have
caused that. Another possibility is a clogged catalytic converter, I've
seen that prevent the turbo from developing boost.

Without it functioning the car will be dangerously underpowered, fuel
economy will suffer due to the exhaust restriction, and resale value is
substantially lowered. If the car is as nice as you say it is, just
fix/replace the turbo, they're not THAT expensive anymore.

I want to use this car as a jumping off point for a "forever car" and
I would be reluctant to see it slip away.

Asking price is rather high considering the Turbo and A/C.

Thoughts?

TIA

jimB

If you paid a mechanic to replace the turbo and fix the AC, you'd
probably be looking at around $2,000, so this can certainly be a
negotiating point. That said, dead AC in an old car is pretty much
expected, and a lot of people don't seem to care. If you're a DIY guy,
this could be a great car, as you can probably fix both issues for under
$500 if you do it yourself. They're really solid dependable rides.

 

[jimb]

On Sun, 25 May 2008 17:08:46 GMT, James Sweet

Thanks James,

Usually the oil seals fail, but it sounds as if the impeller may have
seized, you can verify this by removing the intake hose and trying to
spin the shaft with your fingers. I suppose sitting around could have
caused that. Another possibility is a clogged catalytic converter, I've
seen that prevent the turbo from developing boost.
Thanks

Without it functioning the car will be dangerously underpowered, fuel
economy will suffer due to the exhaust restriction, and resale value is
substantially lowered. If the car is as nice as you say it is, just
fix/replace the turbo, they're not THAT expensive anymore.

I will call this to their attention.

I drove the car up the highway a bit and I didn't seem to notice much
difference as compared to my other 2 normally aspirated 740's.

If you paid a mechanic to replace the turbo and fix the AC, you'd
probably be looking at around $2,000, so this can certainly be a
negotiating point. That said, dead AC in an old car is pretty much
expected, and a lot of people don't seem to care. If you're a DIY guy,
this could be a great car, as you can probably fix both issues for under
$500 if you do it yourself. They're really solid dependable rides.

Somewhat of a rant follows...

The A/C is a no care.

One of the individuals that own the car is one of those people that
believe what they have is worth more than what it is. They are really
unwilling to negotiate at face value "Well, we have been driving the
car without the turbo and we don't mind"

Car is also one of those one-owner "My Baby" cars.

There is an interesting dynamic going on between the sellers also that
I won't get into.

There are some other things wrong like a small oil leak, which I did
not point out. Clutch feels a little odd so it may be time soon.

Question: If this is an M46, is the clutch automatically mechanical
like my other M46?

FWIW I did a KBB on the car and I assume they did. I don't usually use
KBB but I wanted to see if I could figure out where they got their
asking price. Who knows where they got the price though.

KBB is dangerous to those who cannot be objective about what they have
and what they don't have when selecting a condition level to market
their car as.

NO used car of any reasonable age should be "Excellent" That would
mean everything fixed and a proper dealer level detailing performed.
No one reads the caveats under condition descriptions.

The price they are asking is in that category for private sale.

Despite the nice condition, it still is an 18yo car with some
problems.

I have been driving good solid well-kept used cars all my life. Cars
that I call "good karma" cars. Fair values. I shoot for 1/2 way
between KBB/Edmunds wholesale and private party. I have never paid
anything close to average private sale figures. The 2 740's I have are
nice with some minor issues and I paid less for both combined than the
asking on this one.

Last I chatted with the owners they indicated that they were going to
take it out to have a mechanic look at the turbo. Dialogue with them
is still open I believe. They searched the net and found a turbo
repair kit for $40 and they "Would consider taking $100 off"

I watch a mint 240 with low, low miles go unsold for months as the
inflated price dropped and dropped. I believe the car still didn't
sell. I wasn't interested as it was automatic.

On this one, I believe I still have first on the sale not that means
anything.

I really would like to get the car but I am playing it close and not
getting the owners PO'd by harping on the car's flaws. I could see
this one lasting 10 years easy as I don't drive much.

It has come down in my mind to I will let the car go rather than pay
high asking without negotiation. That's coupled with them not
mentioning the turbo in the listing or on the phone.

I figure most of the people interested in this are other Brick Heads.

OBTW, I can most likely fix/rebuild the turbo unit myself or certainly
get it off and take it to a shop.

Apologies for the rant

jimB

PS then I would of course have to face the decision as to which one of
"my babies" would have to go <grin>

 

[Steve H]

On Sun, 25 May 2008 17:08:46 GMT, James Sweet

Thanks James,

I figure most of the people interested in this are other Brick Heads.

OBTW, I can most likely fix/rebuild the turbo unit myself or certainly
get it off and take it to a shop.

Apologies for the rant

jimB

PS then I would of course have to face the decision as to which one of
"my babies" would have to go <grin>

If it's overpriced and has problems just walk away. Our local Volvo
dealer often has a few good old trade-in cars that are too old for them
to resell parked round the back waiting to go for auction, it costs them
to transport and they will often take a silly offer.

Steve H

 

[James Sweet]

One of the individuals that own the car is one of those people that
believe what they have is worth more than what it is. They are really
unwilling to negotiate at face value "Well, we have been driving the
car without the turbo and we don't mind"

Car is also one of those one-owner "My Baby" cars.

There is an interesting dynamic going on between the sellers also that
I won't get into.

There are some other things wrong like a small oil leak, which I did
not point out. Clutch feels a little odd so it may be time soon.

Question: If this is an M46, is the clutch automatically mechanical
like my other M46?

700 Turbos have hydraulic clutches, they feel a bit different. I didn't
think '90 offered a manual transmission? Perhaps it has been converted?

What are they asking?

If they're asking too much, then walk away, plenty of these cars around.
If they think the turbo can be fixed for $40, have them fix it, if you
take it to a shop you're looking at around $1500. Nobody in their right
mind would pay full value for a car with a seized turbo if that is in
fact the problem. The turbo is what makes the car what it is, without
that it's just a plain 740, those are a dime a dozen. The fact they've
been driving it around like that makes me wonder what else has been
neglected. From the sound of it, this car is not going anywhere anytime
soon, either the price will drop, or they'll keep it.

 

[jimb]

700 Turbos have hydraulic clutches, they feel a bit different. I didn't
think '90 offered a manual transmission? Perhaps it has been converted?

Nope.

I have a 1990 B230F with a M47 5-speed. Original owner told me that
they actually had to go out of state to find one.

The one I am interested is is a M46 4-speed w/ OD.

What are they asking?

Got a call last night and they accepted my offer even though it was
lower than one other offer. It seems that owner likes me and wants me
to have "their baby".

I have the sense the other offer might have come from a dealer and
car was intend to go on a lot for $1000 more (average retail)

No one would want this car except a Brick Head or a dealer. Not
everone will buy a manual

The turbo is what makes the car what it is

Absolutely. That is why I have been looking for one.

740 4-speed w/turbo is a rare bird and I have been looking for a
while.

I wanted a 940 w/ 4 or 5 speed but haven't found one.

, without that it's just a plain 740, those are a dime a dozen. The fact they've
been driving it around like that makes me wonder what else has been
neglected. From the sound of it, this car is not going anywhere anytime
soon, either the price will drop, or they'll keep it.

I suspect nothing else has been neglected.

I scoped the owners out pretty well. That's part of what makes what I
called a "good karma" car.

Car actually looked like it was detailed but was not.

Was dealer serviced. I will get to see the service records now.

We'll see.

I have been told that there is a likelyhood that the Turbo is seized
from sitting (rust) I will try to gently free is up if I can otherwise
I will remove and repair or remove and take it to a shop.

I believe it is a Mitsubishi TD04. It's the last version put on that
car.

jimB

 

[James Sweet]

I have a 1990 B230F with a M47 5-speed. Original owner told me that
they actually had to go out of state to find one.

But is it a turbo? As far as I know, the weaker M47 was never factory
coupled to a turbo motor.

740 4-speed w/turbo is a rare bird and I have been looking for a
while.

I have one, but it's an '87, nice ride.

I wanted a 940 w/ 4 or 5 speed but haven't found one.

They don't exist in North America. You could import one from Europe I
suppose, or convert one using parts from a 740, but they were never sold
here. All 900 series are automatic.

 

[jimb]

But is it a turbo? As far as I know, the weaker M47 was never factory
coupled to a turbo motor.

Nope, it's normally aspirated with a Regina Rex system too instead of
the Bosch. Eww

They don't exist in North America. You could import one from Europe I
suppose, or convert one using parts from a 740, but they were never sold
here. All 900 series are automatic.

Well, I guess that ends that. Thanks for telling me. Duh jim

Drove new car back from where I bought it today. Power seems fine,
rides tight. Chugs up a steep hill at 30MPH in OD.

OK on highway. Holds 80MPH no problem.

Spent 1 1/4 hour with it on the way back, back roads and highway.

I have all the records I will review them. Had oil change every 3K.

I notice the turbo gage moves up to the yellow line and stops. I
assume it's a vacuum gage so gage movement doesn't mean anything.

jimB

 

[James Sweet]

Nope, it's normally aspirated with a Regina Rex system too instead of
the Bosch. Eww

While I've never had one myself, the Regina system is supposed to be
quite good, there's no expensive air mass meter to fail for one thing.

Drove new car back from where I bought it today. Power seems fine,
rides tight. Chugs up a steep hill at 30MPH in OD.

OK on highway. Holds 80MPH no problem.

Spent 1 1/4 hour with it on the way back, back roads and highway.

I have all the records I will review them. Had oil change every 3K.

I notice the turbo gage moves up to the yellow line and stops. I
assume it's a vacuum gage so gage movement doesn't mean anything.

jimB

That's exactly the behavior of a turbo that isn't producing boost, the
yellow is where vacuum ends and boost starts. You might check the
wastegate, if the actuator rod comes loose from the lever, it will
behave this way. I disconnected the one in my 240 while I was getting
the Megasquirt injection tuned to the point of being drivable. If it
isn't seized then this is where I'd look next.

 

[jimb]

That's exactly the behavior of a turbo that isn't producing boost, the
yellow is where vacuum ends and boost starts. You might check the
wastegate, if the actuator rod comes loose from the lever, it will
behave this way.

Bingo!

Thanks James

Don't know whether retainer fell off or arm on actuator wore/broke
short. Can't see yet up in there. Waste gate actuator is on bottom of
turbo.

Turbo is Mitsubishi TD04 (earlier version I presume).

Car was manufactured in 1989.

Gate does swing freely.

If I boot it, the car actually accelerates well.

jimB

 

[James Sweet]

Bingo!

Thanks James

Don't know whether retainer fell off or arm on actuator wore/broke
short. Can't see yet up in there. Waste gate actuator is on bottom of
turbo.

Turbo is Mitsubishi TD04 (earlier version I presume).

Car was manufactured in 1989.

Gate does swing freely.

If I boot it, the car actually accelerates well.

jimB

That's the same turbo that's on mine, after more than 291K, it's still
going strong.

 

[jimb]

All betta!

Turbo works like a champ.

Popped waste gate crank arm back into actuator shaft.

I need a retaining ring but is is hanging together.

Turbo Bricks Rule!

jimB