S60-T Accelerated on its own!

While at a red light, my foot on the brake, my 2002 S60-T (34,000 miles)
accelerated (as if someone suddenly stomped on the accelerator) all by
itself. I kept my foot on the brake but the car began to go through an
intersection, anti-lock brakes thumping away. I made a quick right turn and
shifted the car into neutral. The RPMs came down from red line (8,000 I was
told by my wide-eyed rear seat passenger) to normal in about one or two
seconds or so. A few minutes later, it happened a second time while I was
stopped at another red light. Twice in one night, the car floored itself
while I was stopped at a red light. Cruise control was off. Everything
seemed normal -- but it wasn't. I had been driving for at least ten minutes
before the first incident so I believe the car had warmed up sufficiently.
It wasn't the floor mat.

I had the car at the dealer for a download of the computer yesterday. No
indications of trouble. They drove the car off and on today to see if it
would happen again. Nothing. I have not experienced a problem again
either -- but my confidence in the safety of this car (now nicknamed
"Christine" - like in the movie) is zero. I'm afraid to drive it, or have
any family member drive it. Will it happen again? How can I be assured it
won't?

I did express concerns about liability exposure to myself and to Volvo here
if anything happens. While courteous, Volvo's assistant service manager did
nothing more than have his people test drive the car today. If anyone gets
injured (or worse) as a result of this happening again, it could be very
ugly. Frankly, I expected more concern from Volvo here -- as the company's
reputation is built on safety. Safety is the primary reason I bought this
car. If I'm the customer service manager, I would absolutely notify Volvo
HQ of this incident (minimally). I have no reason to believe he did or
will.

The night was cold and snowy. I had the car washed the day before -- not
sure if either could have caused/contributed to the problem. This problem
reminds me of the Audi 5000 problem in the '80s -- a problem that Audi
didn't handle well -- and it cost them dearly reputation-wise.

* Has anyone experienced a similar problem with their Volvo?

* Does anyone have an idea of what might have caused this "foot to the floor
automatic acceleration" problem.

* What should I do here (aside from buying Japanese again)? Any input would
be appreciated.

Thanks!!

Sean
Chicago

 

i would contact your attorney and the local office of consumer
complaints...you need to start a "paper trail" on your s80...

if it keeps up, file claims on volvo north america...the will help
as long as you are "making noise"...
oh yea...i would keep kids out of my car as well...

 

Just thinking out loud here - are the S60s prone to defective throttle
position sensor pots, as in the S80s? If I understand the S80 problem right,
the throttle control loses track of where it is setting the throttle. If
this is the case, it is not likely to leave a trail (the system believes it
did everything right). If it is a "by wire" throttle control, it could also
be a failure of the accelerator position sensor... that would not normally
leave a trail, either.

I, too, would be worried. Be aware there will be a lot of institutional
resistance to your story, since the great majority of "automatic full
throttle acceleration" are the clear result of foot confusion. Your
description of it happening twice, while already stopped, and the brakes
fighting the acceleration, convinces me that isn't what you experienced.

Mike

 

Interesting reference to Audi 5000S. I was driving an Audi 5000S at the
time and considered the situation lacking all technical merit. If you
analyze the testimony given in at least one case the car accelerated from a
full stop in such a way as to force the car through a garage door as well as
the back wall of the garage notwithstanding the fact the driver claimed to
have his/her foot firmly depressing the break pedal. "The car did not even
slow down!"

Fact: the coefficient of static friction is much greater that of dynamic
friction. Meaning that the breaks are more effective when the car is not
moving than when the car is moving. At least form me the car capable of
stopping from a speed in excess of 150 KM/H very quickly.

Conclusion: Recall the testimony (the care did not even slow down!)

The driver has his/her foot firmly planted on the Accelerator and not the
brake. So much for sudden acceleration!

I was considering suing 60 Minutes and MarketPlace in Canada.

I had the car for over 250,000 KM. Never had a problem with that issue. My
extremely excellent private VW/Audi mechanic agreed with my assessment. Not
that the Audi peddles ARE extremely close to each other.

On one occasion after driving a rental vehicle (GM) for some time on
business, I managed to have a sudden acceleration issue in my 2003 XC70.
My assessment was that I had simultaneously depressed both the accelerator
and brake pedals. In other words DRIVER ERROR! Not in any way a mechanical
problem.

"Twice in one night, the car floored itself while I was stopped at a red
light" These circumstances are remarkably similar to my situation.

G

 

I know of an Audi garage who said it was pretty much BS about the 5000 -
many of their customers have 5000's and they themselves (garage owners) have
at least 1 or 2 for their own use... Interesting note I found on my 99.5 VW
Golf TDI (haven't tried on the Volvo - a 93' 960) - if I press the gas and
brake pedals at the same time (automatic tranny) the engine will cut power
and the car goes to idle speed - safety feature perhaps? I believe it has a
by-wire throttle - wouldn't be hard to implement an interlock.

I have had a car take off on me - 1991 Golf (gasoline engine) around -35°C
out (probably below 40 with the wind) the car would not revv below 4000rpm
while in gear, bounced off redline out of gear.... was an interesting 3-4
minutes drive home... I assumed the throttle cable froze in position or
something like that - when that car had a sensor failure it tended to not be
able to rev over 3500-4000rpm and would have trouble idling.

 

Thanks for the feedback. I did cc: Volvo (corporate) on my newsgroup
posting the same night. I cc:ed myself for documentation purposes. In my
letter to corporate, I suggested they run things by their lawyers. The
choice of making updates to my car (to assure something like this doesn't
happen again) versus settling a multi-million dollar law suit (should
something terrible happen as a result of this happening again) would be a
no-brainer to me, but it's in Volvo's hands.

To Volvo (corporate's) credit... they responded to my e-mail the next day
and asked for the VIN Number and name of dealer who looked at my car. I
trust that they are looking into it. Didn't hear from anyone today but I'm
hopeful that the dialog will continue.

In a time when people sue McDonald's for obecity (which is flat-out insane),
I'm deeply concerned about what might happen if this problem repeats itself.
More than being concerned about law suits, I'm concerned about hurting
someone. I don't want this to happen. You would think that
"safety-conscious" Volvo would share this concern.

Let's see what happens here.

Sean

 

Mike:

Thanks for your feedback. I will discuss with Volvo (if given the chance).
I corresponded (once) with Volvo (corporate) who is looking into the
situation. I'm waiting for their follow-up reply. I did appreciate
corporate getting back to me. Good first step. Let's see where this goes.

I love the car and I don't want to be an alarmist. I have no axe to grind
with Volvo in any way. I do need Volvo's (written) assurance that this
won't happen again, however. What do you think the chances are they'll
provide it? I'd be shocked if they would provide anything in writing
without making alterations to the car first (or perhaps even after they make
alterations).

Some suggested it was driver's error but, as you mentioned, the fact that it
happened TWICE in the same night makes you (and me) feel otherwise. I was
unprepared and caught off guard for the first event. I was totally prepared
for the second. Some suggtested my foot may have been on the accelerator
and I stomped on it rather than the brake. I doubt this was the case as I
was fully stopped at red lights... for several seconds (5-20, I estimate) in
both cases.. and my car accelerated from a perfect stand-still both times.
It wasn't like I slowed down without coming to a full stop, stomped on the
accelerator and the car took off. On BOTH occasions, I was fully stopped
and then the car suddenly revved and started to fight my braking action. In
both cases, the car wouldn't have accelerated through a brick wall (as one
respondent said an Audi accident victim claimed) but I (or my wife or young
daughter) probably would have rear-ended a car in front of me, or inched
into a busy intersection to possibly get broad-sided by God knows what, or
hit a pedestrian in a cross-walk.

Three passengers in the car with me that night would testify as to what
happened, if necessary. The second time it happend, as the car reved and
fought my braking action, I exclaimed something like, "Here it goes again!"
They were happy to get out of the car when I reached the destination. Can
you see the Audi commercial now?... "The best thing about a Volvo is getting
out of it... alive."

Maybe Volvo will do nothing... and maybe I'll never experience the problem
again... and maybe the problem will never happen to any other Volvo owner.
That would be 100% fine with me. In the mean time, I've documented
everything so that if something tragic happens, I can provide my lawyers
with plenty of evidence that I did my best to resolve the issues. In the
mean time, I continue to monitor this news group for input.

Sean

 

Gunner:

Thanks for your feedback. I did consider (and re-consider) that it may have
been driver (my) error as you suggest. I was wearing boots that night as it
was snowing. This was the first time I wore boots with this car and --
yes -- the accelerator and brake are close together (something Volvo's
engineers might want to consider in future designs as many Volvo owners --
in both USA and Sweden -- wear boots during winter).

If it happened once, I would be much more likely to concede that I may have
been at fault. But it happened twice in the same night -- about 5 minutes
apart (and the second time I was VERY aware of what happened the first
time). I tried to recreate the situation that night after dropping my
passengers off. Zip. Volvo said they couldn't get it to happen either.

After reading your feedback, I went out (with my boots on) and tried to step
on the brake and accelerator simultaneously. It was difficult to do but I
was able to do it. HOWEVER, with a foot on the brake (fully stopped) and my
attempt to step on the accelerator at the same time, I couldn't get the car
to rev into the red line zone without really forcing my foot down in such a
way that my foot was almost entirely off the brake. This was a highly
unnatural driving position that took deliberate action to cause. Highly
doubtful I could have done it accidentally -- TWICE -- in the same night.
Try it if you own a Volvo and see what you think.

Did I accidentally step on the accelerator rather than the brake? Fair
question. My recollection... I was stopped at a red light. Did I lift my
foot off the brake to stomp on the accelerator (accidentally) -- TWICE -- to
the red line point? Highly doubtful. Tonight, I deliberately floored the
car (foot not on the brake) and I couldn't get it to red line before I had
to slow down. Did the car red line (only) after I shifted into neutral that
night to disengage from drive? Possibly... I honestly don't know as my
primary concern was to get it to disengage.

Was I impaired in any way that evening? Absolutely not.

I have no axe to grind with Volvo. I love this car. I don't want to put
Volvo through unnecessary paces or expenses to fix something that isn't
broken (if it truly isn't). What I DO want is to be 100% certain that this
problem doesn't happen again -- ever. I'm doing all I can to be sure it
doesn't. I'm willing to work with Volvo on this... to meet with
engineers... to explore possible causes. If they can prove to me how it
was driver error, I'll happily thank them for educating me so the problem
doesn't happen again. For me, it's about safety -- not ego. Not sure how
Volvo feels here yet. I'm hopeful they'll share my position.

I don't know why you find my reference to Audi "interesting." It was the
only thing I could think of... that comes close to what I experienced TWICE
the other evening. You suggest the Audi situation was a scam based on your
experience and a conversation with your mechanic. Not sure if a study of
two is statistically meaningful. You suggest 60 Minutes did a hatchet job
on Audi. It wouldn't be the first time they sensationalized something for
ratings. I hate the show. Can't stand the show or the reporters. Was the
Audi story sensation or reality? I honestly don't know. I never saw that
piece. Did you really consider suing 60 Minutes over the story? You must
really have LOVED your Audi!

My Volvo didn't accelerate to the point where it would have gone through a
garage wall (at least not with my foot on the brake). But it did creep
forward during the process. It would have rear-ended a car in front of me
had there been one, or I would have crept far enough into the intersection
to be T-boned by oncoming traffic -- thankfully there was none, or I would
have hit a pedestrian in front of me if there had been one. Thankfully --
this time -- no ill events. I don't want there to be "next time" where the
outcome might be different. Wonder how Volvo feels? We'll see.

Sean

 

The ECU on the S60 has an onboard "flight recorder", which stores items such
as throttle position, power asked for and power provided, acceloronmeter,
steering angle and brake switch information for the last (i think) 4hrs, so
any funny business will be clearly shown on the download.

Tim..

 

I have just been out in a friends s60 2.0 T (180bhp) auto. By way of an
experiement we tried full power with the brakes hard on whilst stationary
for a couple of seconds.

The brakes were able to hold the car stationary against full power of the
engine. Note that this was after being at idle for abit so the brake servo
was at full capacity- thus the brakes at their most effective.

Had yoou not had full brake servo assistance you probably wouldnt have been
able to hold the car on the brakes. If this was a T5 or such with more power
than 180bhp you also may not have been able to hold it.

Get back to the dealer and see what the flight recorder says....

Tim..

 

The most noticeable feature of most "accelerated on its own" stories is that
the car accelerates at full throttle, although the driver is pressing on the
"brake" pedal as hard as possible, and the brakes do nothing. Since the
brakes seem to work afterward and the likelihood of simultaneous total brake
failure and throttle opening is nil, the inescapable conclusion is that the
driver got on the accelerator pedal instead of the brake.

That's what is different about this case. An unimpaired driver, waiting with
his foot on the brake, is not very likely to accidentally slip his foot
upward onto the accelerator and depress it fully without noticing,
especially if (as described) the same foot is still on the brake and the
brakes are fighting the acceleration. In addition, as described, the engine
went from red line back to idle on its own. I've had foot confusion myself -
when the brake went to the floor I thought I was on the clutch instead - and
the mind focuses a lot on the pedals at times like that. The driver would
definitely know if the engine idled down because he moved his foot.

Barring some weird medical problem (I've heard of Alien Hand Syndrome - is
this Alien Foot Syndrome?) the problem pretty much has to be in the throttle
control system.

Mike

 

(snip...)

IMHO:
there is only one country in this world in which cars suddenly accelerate
while the driver hits the brakes: USA.
And there is only one reason for that: you can easily earn billions of
dollars for that in the USA. Any lawyer sees the dollar-signs in his eyes
while fighting for "human rights" being destroyed by the bl***
manufacturers. Coffee too hot: get 15 million from MCD***, ice to cold?
get...... killed yourself your kid while misregarding a red traffic light
and the kid was not using the safety belt? claim a "poorly designed lock....
sorry...... this is not normal....

All in all: I did not belive this self-accelerating stories and I do not
belive in this story.

Looking about the warnings in the recent manuals and on the sidewalls of my
tires I have many thoughts and many doubts....


Jürgen

 

I agree with you that law suits in the USA are out of control. Ridiculous.
That is true. But, as I live in the USA, and I recognize this epidemic, I
try to protect myself from becoming a victim of said law suits. For this
reason, I went to Volvo with a problem I experienced. I don't believe it
was driver error (twice in one night). I believe it was my car. Nobody got
hurt. No law suit was filed. I reached out for help and advice. I'm
trying to prevent both from happening in the future. I don't want anyone to
get hurt and I don't want any kind of law suit from being filed (against me
or against Volvo). In good faith, I took steps to prevent future injury or
legal action. I have done my part to the very best of my ability. This is
on the record. Now the matter is in Volvo's hands.

For the record, I didn't post my experience to find out who believes about
the events and who doesn't. Juergen, in all candor, I don't care what you
believe about this situation or my country for that matter. I posted my
experience merely to find out if any other Volvo customers ever experienced
a similar situation.

Sean

 

Thanks Tim. Sadly, my car isn't the T5 (which it were). I have not tried
to do what you did only because I don't want to harm my transmission or
brakes by putting that kind of stress on them.

My car has 34,000 miles on it. I'm wondering if the car you tested had
newer brake linings? Might that make a difference? Or, on the night I was
driving it, there was snow all over (the roads were wet). Could wet
pavement (and wet brakes) make a difference? If the brakes were wet, could
they still hold the car?

The car didn't go fast when it reved up, but it did creep.

Sean

 

Tim:

Took the car in two days after the event. I know I didn't drive for more
than 4 hours between the event and the Volvo visit. They did "dump" the
flight recorder and saw nothing unusual.

Sean

 

that would be for a jury to decide...in the usa, large payouts keeps
co's
honest...if it were not for financial loss...do you really think, for a
min, co's
would "do the right thing" in a capitalist environment...???

 

Frankly if the brakes were not up to the job of holding the car against full
power, or indeed performing a panick stop from..say 70mph withoout something
breaking or bursting then i'd be worried.

Warming up the torque converter is another thing, and I would not suggest
you apply full power against a stationary transmission for more than
3-4seconds (which in reality is along time) but for the purposes of an
experiement or leaving the lights as quickly as possible it presents no
danger, if done with mechanical sympathy etc.

The car in question was a 2004 with 18,000miles on it, if the brakes are not
worn out and the rear self adjusting mechanism is working properly then the
braking performance of your car vs the one I used should have been very
nearly the same- servo issues aside.

Grip the tyres have against the road is also irrelevant (with a FWD car
only) as all the braking power is applied to the front wheels, which on a
FWD is where the engine power is applied to also- you could jack up the car,
and remove the wheels and there would be no difference. Think about it.

This is probably down to the car moving when you applied the brakes and the
servo not being able to give you 100% assistance because the engine was not
producing any vacuum to make the servo work..

Tim..

 

I did a test on my own, with my BMW 530d A Touring. (193hp, 410NM torque).
The brakes could easily hold the car with full throttle. Sure, I stopped the
test after 4-5 secs to avoid damages in the automatic transmission. And in
that, switching into N, or turnng the engine off is no problem. And compared
to a 2.4 or 2.5T the diesel is by far much stronger.

I read your stroy, but beliving in it: no.

Jürgen

 

Maybe there is a cutoff when both pedals are applied? My Golf diesel will
cut engine power if the brakes are on with the accelerator.

But then again I saw a video where a Volvo V70 wagon was doing a brake stand
(rear wheels locked, probably by parking brake) with the fronts burning into
a cloud of smoke it only took off when the guy released the brake.

 

Jurgen:

When I posted my original question on the newsgroup, it was for one
reason... Simply to find out if other Volvo owners had ever experienced
anything like what I experienced? I wasn't looking for people to believe,
or not believe, me. I wasn't looking to solicit political viewpoints about
my country, or any other country for that matter. I didn't want to discuss
the legal system in my country, or any other country. **All I wanted to
know is if other Volvo owners had ever experienced something similar to what
I experienced. **
My experience was disconcerting (to say the least) and I was looking for
information (one way or the other) so that I could take the best --
educated -- approach as a follow-up to that bad experience.

I'm not sure why you felt compelled to turn a simple question into something
other than what I was asking for. I don't believe I signed on to a
newsgroup called alt.politics.socialist or alt.autos.Nazi. I signed on to
alt.autos.volvo -- which I expected to be a newsgroup that transcends
political viewpoints or boarders and, instead, is a place where Volvo owners
could gather input on their cars from other Volvo owners.

You seem to be a self-proclaimed Volvo expert. Peachy for you. Volvo is
sending a representative to look at my car on Thursday which I appreciate.
Hopefully this will be good (and safe -- which I believe is what Volvo wants
and certainly what I want) for all.

Sean