Brakes on 144 failing

[sherwin dubren (archive)]

My 144 does not get a lot of use, but today, the brakes were almost inoperable. I checked for leaks and levels in the reservoir, but nothing indicated a problem. I have spent mucho dollars on replacing brake lines and components on this car, and was surprised it went bad just by sitting on the driveway.

My guess is that it might be the master cylinder or the servo unit. I hope my aging Volvo mechanic is still around, as most mechanics scratch their heads when they look at a 1969 Volvo 144. The servo is somehow activated by a vacuum hose, so I wonder if that is where the problem lies? Any advise on this one?

Sherwin

 

[sherwin dubren (archive)]

My 144 does not get a lot of use, but today, the brakes were almost inoperable. I checked for leaks and levels in the reservoir, but nothing indicated a problem. I have spent mucho dollars on replacing brake lines and components on this car, and was surprised it went bad just by sitting on the driveway.

My guess is that it might be the master cylinder or the servo unit. I hope my aging Volvo mechanic is still around, as most mechanics scratch their heads when they look at a 1969 Volvo 144. The servo is somehow activated by a vacuum hose, so I wonder if that is where the problem lies? Any advise on this one?

Sherwin

Just found a test for the brake booster in an old Chilton Volvo manual. It tells you to put your foot on the brake with moderate pressure and the engine off. Then, start the engine maintaining the same pressure on the brake pedal. If the power booster is working, the pedal should depress more at this time. On our car, it doesn't move, so I am thinking it may be the power booster. Chilton mentions a vacuum control valve that may have to be replaced. I don't know if that will fix the problem, or if these valves are available any where.

Sherwin

 

[James Sweet]

Just found a test for the brake booster in an old Chilton Volvo manual. It tells you to put your foot on the brake with moderate pressure and the engine off. Then, start the engine maintaining the same pressure on the brake pedal. If the power booster is working, the pedal should depress more at this time. On our car, it doesn't move, so I am thinking it may be the power booster. Chilton mentions a vacuum control valve that may have to be replaced. I don't know if that will fix the problem, or if these valves are available any where.

Sherwin

It's probably the booster, they have a rubber diaphragm and failure is very common on any old car as the rubber deteriorates. You can test it with a hand operated vacuum pump too, just pump some air out and see if it maintains a vacuum.

 

[James Sweet]

I must be OLD - I thought of that test instantly. No research required... Hopefully rebuilt units are still available. Not sure I'd trust New Old Stock at this point.

I think I've seen boosters from 240s installed on 140s, I don't recall the details though. Pretty sure you can find something that will fit.

 

[Leftie]

It's probably the booster, they have a rubber diaphragm and failure is very common on any old car as the rubber deteriorates. You can test it with a hand operated vacuum pump too, just pump some air out and see if it maintains a vacuum.

I must be OLD - I thought of that test instantly. No research required... Hopefully rebuilt units are still available. Not sure I'd trust New Old Stock at this point.

 

[sherwin dubren (archive)]

It's probably the booster, they have a rubber diaphragm and failure is very common on any old car as the rubber deteriorates. You can test it with a hand operated vacuum pump too, just pump some air out and see if it maintains a vacuum.

I took my volvo to a Swedish mechanic, who is still working at the age of 75. I had faith in this guy, because he diagnosed a drive shaft problem that our regular mechanic missed completely.

This time, I think he is trying to wiggle out of fixing it. He is giving us erroneous info on what he thinks the problem is. For example, he says our brake pads with imbedded metallic are causing a great deal of the problem. I drove the car before it suddenly failed, and it had no problem stopping. He put on a booster unit that was laying around his house for who knows how long, and it didn't work. He thought it was an improvement, but the car still needs excessive pedal power to stop. I kept running that test of putting constant pressure on the pedal and starting the engine. The pedal still does not move. I asked him to put a vaccum pump on it for testing, and he evades me to do so. I hear hissing sounds coming from the booster, which I never heard on our original unit. I think this is air escaping past the diaphragm. We left the car with him, and I don't know what he is going to do next. I told him we would try to locate a working booster unit, but I think that is not very hopeful. Volvo was very smart to put in this booster unit that cannot be repaired. There is no kit for it that I know of, and I don't see a way to open it. The mechanic showed us a booster unit from a 240, and it was too large and not compatible.

They say a Volvo is for life. I don't think so. We may have to junk this car because of this stupid problem.

Sherwin

 

[sherwin dubren (archive)]

I think I've seen boosters from 240s installed on 140s, I don't recall the details though. Pretty sure you can find something that will fit.

I wonder if a booster unit from a car older than a 1969 144 would work? I have seen kits for them, so maybe they can be brought up to speed. I don't know where I can get an old booster unit like this.

Sherwin

 

[Andy (archive)]

sherwin dubren wrote:

I hear hissing
sounds coming from the booster, which I never heard on our original unit.

Sounds like a fairly big air leak.

I think this is air escaping past the diaphragm.
We left the car with him, and I don't know what he is going to do next. I told him we would try to locate a working booster unit, but I think that is not very hopeful. Volvo was very smart to put in this booster unit that cannot be repaired. There is no kit for it that I know of, and I don't see a way to open it.

I'm surprised that there's no-one around capable of reconditioning the booster. You'll need a specialist brake place rather than a Volvo shop, regardless.

The mechanic showed us a booster unit from a 240, and it was too large and not compatible.

OK. This one may require a bit of 'outside the square' thinking, provided the original booster can't be rebuilt.

While the 240 booster mightn't bolt right in, the end solution to this might be *making* something fit. A booster of a similar physical size from a 'regular' car (with parts still able to be purchased over the counter) would be a good solution. May just require a little bit of craftsmanship with the brackets. At the end of the day, they're not overly complex devices.

Either way, see if you can find a specialist brake shop somewhere near you.

And failing that - ask your local hot rod club/s how they'd workaround this sort of thing. There's plenty of old cars cruising around with entirely different (and better) braking systems crafted together from more 'normal' parts. There's a fix for this somewhere.

And please, let us know how you get on

Cheers,
Andy.

 

[James Sweet]

They say a Volvo is for life. I don't think so. We may have to junk this car because of this stupid problem.

Sherwin

Well let's not get carried away here. Even Volvo I don't think expected many of these to still be on the road 40 years later! This is a classic car, some parts will be hard to find, some things that are "not rebuildable" will have to be rebuilt, fabricated, or something modern adapted to fit. This is just the nature of the beast when dealing with pretty much any classic. You can't expect replacements for every part on the car to be manufactured forever. Sometimes you have to do some searching, or get creative.

Even a new old stock booster is likely to be bad, rubber dries out and cracks just sitting on the shelf.

 

[JDT2Q]

Sherwin - you don't say which country you are in but as you are fluent in English I'm sure you will find an alternative source of help or maybe even parts if you post a msg in the 140 series wants section. The forum is much more active than this newsgroup. Someone on the forum may have had similar problems.

Look here http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=7

Colin ( 2 of 1988 240GL's - only Volvo since 1982 )

 

[sherwin dubren (archive)]

Sherwin - you don't say which country you are in but as you are fluent in English I'm sure you will find an alternative source of help or maybe even parts if you post a msg in the 140 series wants section. The forum is much more active than this newsgroup. Someone on the forum may have had similar problems.

Look here http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=7

Colin ( 2 of 1988 240GL's - only Volvo since 1982 )

I live in the Chicago area.

I have posted a parts request on various volvo forums. So far, only one negative reply. However, with the Labor Day weekend, maybe something will come in next week. I even sent a request to someone in Sweden, but I'm afraid it will cost me a few Kroner, or two.

The idea of adapting another car's unit to the Volvo is of course, a possiblity, but I would rather start with a Volvo unit, if I can. I'm not sure if some of the earlier cars than a 144 can be suitable. Seems like this kind of part for anything earlier than a 240 series is getting harder to find.

I will report any successes or failures as they develop.

Thanks for all the replies,

Sherwin

 

[sherwin dubren (archive)]

Had two replies on replacement brake boosters.

One reply from the USA said he had one for 100 dollars
plus shipping, but did not know the condition of the unit. My remark about putting a hand vacuum pump on it and seeing if it holds a vacuum made the seller say he thought that test was not adequate. How can you test a unit like that?

Another reply from Sweden said they had several units like that, but they were sitting on a shelf for a long time, so they also could not speak for their reliability. They want a picture of our booster to verify a match. I thought there was only one such unit for the Volvo 144's in 1969. They said the units need to be checked, but again I don't know how they do that.

Sherwin

 

[Leftie]

I live in the Chicago area.

I have posted a parts request on various volvo forums. So far, only one negative reply. However, with the Labor Day weekend, maybe something will come in next week. I even sent a request to someone in Sweden, but I'm afraid it will cost me a few Kroner, or two.

The idea of adapting another car's unit to the Volvo is of course, a possiblity, but I would rather start with a Volvo unit, if I can. I'm not sure if some of the earlier cars than a 144 can be suitable. Seems like this kind of part for anything earlier than a 240 series is getting harder to find.

I will report any successes or failures as they develop.

Thanks for all the replies,

Sherwin

Have you tried cross-checking the compatibility of the P1800/P1800ES booster unit?

 

[sherwin dubren (archive)]

Have you tried cross-checking the compatibility of the P1800/P1800ES booster unit?

The official Volvo web site replied that there is only one booster for the 1969 Volvo 144, and they knew of no other model Volvo that could be utilized. However, I spoke to a rebuilder in California today, and he said there were actually two models of boosters for that car. One was indeed unreparable. He described it as having crimps on two sides of the outer circular body, and additionally, a band of metal. But, he said there is a repairable version with crimps on only one side, and no band of metal. I have not yet seen my car at the mechanic's garage, so I don't know which one I have. If I can locate the repairable version, I will send it to California for rebuilding. If not, I will ask the people in California to find me one for repairing. My Swedish mechanic thinks I should send the car to the boneyard, but I think it still has a few years left in it. I should do some body reinforcement work, but the rest of the car is fine.

Sherwin

 

[Jim (archive)]

   I took my volvo to a Swedish mechanic, who is still working at theage of 75.  I had faith in this guy, because he diagnosed a drive shaft problem that our regular mechanic missed completely.

   This time, I think he is trying to wiggle out of fixing it.  He is giving us erroneous info on what he thinks the problem is.  For example, he says our brake pads with imbedded metallic are causing a great deal of the problem.  I drove the car before it suddenly failed, and it had no problem stopping.  He put on a booster unit that was laying around his house for who knows how long, and it didn't work.  He thought it was an improvement, but the car still needs excessive pedal power to stop.  I kept running that test of putting constant pressure on the pedal and starting the engine. The pedal still does not move.  I asked him to put a vaccum pump on it for testing, and he evades me to do so.  I hear hissing sounds coming from the booster, which I never heard on our original unit.  I think this is air escaping past the diaphragm. We left the car with him, and I don't know what he is going to do next.  I told him we would try to locate a working booster unit, but I think that is not very hopeful.  Volvo was very smart to put in this booster unit that cannot be repaired.  There is no kit for it that I know of, and I don't see a way to open it.  The mechanic showed us a booster unit from a 240, and it was too large and not compatible.

   They say a Volvo is for life.  I don't think so.  We may have to junk this car because of this stupid problem.

                                  Sherwin

Another common issue with these brakes is for the calipers to seize a little. My dads '67 did this to him 15 years ago and he took the calipers off - soaked them in WD40 and forced them back with Vice- Grips. Then push them out with the pedal, and repeat until they start moving easier. I just bought a '68 and its having the same problem. A check that might help confirm is if you drive it and park it, do the brakes stay on a little making it hard to push when in neutral.