Brakes on 144 failing

[sherwin dubren]

My 144 does not get a lot of use, but today, the brakes
were almost inoperable. I checked for leaks and levels
in the reservoir, but nothing indicated a problem. I
have spent mucho dollars on replacing brake lines and
components on this car, and was surprised it went bad
just by sitting on the driveway.

My guess is that it might be the master cylinder or the
servo unit. I hope my aging Volvo mechanic is still
around, as most mechanics scratch their heads when
they look at a 1969 Volvo 144. The servo is somehow
activated by a vacuum hose, so I wonder if that is
where the problem lies? Any advise on this one?

Sherwin

 

[sherwin dubren]

My 144 does not get a lot of use, but today, the brakes
were almost inoperable. I checked for leaks and levels
in the reservoir, but nothing indicated a problem. I
have spent mucho dollars on replacing brake lines and
components on this car, and was surprised it went bad
just by sitting on the driveway.

My guess is that it might be the master cylinder or the
servo unit. I hope my aging Volvo mechanic is still
around, as most mechanics scratch their heads when
they look at a 1969 Volvo 144. The servo is somehow
activated by a vacuum hose, so I wonder if that is
where the problem lies? Any advise on this one?

Sherwin

Just found a test for the brake booster in an old
Chilton Volvo manual. It tells you to put your
foot on the brake with moderate pressure and the
engine off. Then, start the engine maintaining the
same pressure on the brake pedal. If the power
booster is working, the pedal should depress more
at this time. On our car, it doesn't move, so I
am thinking it may be the power booster. Chilton
mentions a vacuum control valve that may have to
be replaced. I don't know if that will fix the
problem, or if these valves are available any
where.

Sherwin

 

[James Sweet]

Just found a test for the brake booster in an old
Chilton Volvo manual. It tells you to put your
foot on the brake with moderate pressure and the
engine off. Then, start the engine maintaining the
same pressure on the brake pedal. If the power
booster is working, the pedal should depress more
at this time. On our car, it doesn't move, so I
am thinking it may be the power booster. Chilton
mentions a vacuum control valve that may have to
be replaced. I don't know if that will fix the
problem, or if these valves are available any
where.

Sherwin

It's probably the booster, they have a rubber diaphragm and failure is
very common on any old car as the rubber deteriorates. You can test it
with a hand operated vacuum pump too, just pump some air out and see if
it maintains a vacuum.

 

[James Sweet]

I must be OLD - I thought of that test instantly. No research
required... Hopefully rebuilt units are still available. Not sure I'd
trust New Old Stock at this point.

I think I've seen boosters from 240s installed on 140s, I don't recall
the details though. Pretty sure you can find something that will fit.

 

[Leftie]

It's probably the booster, they have a rubber diaphragm and failure is
very common on any old car as the rubber deteriorates. You can test it
with a hand operated vacuum pump too, just pump some air out and see if
it maintains a vacuum.

I must be OLD - I thought of that test instantly. No research
required... Hopefully rebuilt units are still available. Not sure I'd
trust New Old Stock at this point.

 

[sherwin dubren]

It's probably the booster, they have a rubber diaphragm and failure is
very common on any old car as the rubber deteriorates. You can test it
with a hand operated vacuum pump too, just pump some air out and see if
it maintains a vacuum.

I took my volvo to a Swedish mechanic, who is still working at the age
of 75. I had faith in this guy, because he diagnosed a drive shaft
problem that our regular mechanic missed completely.

This time, I think he is trying to wiggle out of fixing it. He is
giving us erroneous info on what he thinks the problem is. For
example, he says our brake pads with imbedded metallic are causing
a great deal of the problem. I drove the car before it suddenly
failed, and it had no problem stopping. He put on a booster unit
that was laying around his house for who knows how long, and it
didn't work. He thought it was an improvement, but the car still
needs excessive pedal power to stop. I kept running that test of
putting constant pressure on the pedal and starting the engine.
The pedal still does not move. I asked him to put a vaccum pump
on it for testing, and he evades me to do so. I hear hissing
sounds coming from the booster, which I never heard on our
original unit. I think this is air escaping past the diaphragm.
We left the car with him, and I don't know what he is going to
do next. I told him we would try to locate a working booster
unit, but I think that is not very hopeful. Volvo was very
smart to put in this booster unit that cannot be repaired. There
is no kit for it that I know of, and I don't see a way to open
it. The mechanic showed us a booster unit from a 240, and it
was too large and not compatible.

They say a Volvo is for life. I don't think so. We may have to
junk this car because of this stupid problem.

Sherwin

 

[sherwin dubren]

I think I've seen boosters from 240s installed on 140s, I don't recall
the details though. Pretty sure you can find something that will fit.

I wonder if a booster unit from a car older than a 1969 144 would
work? I have seen kits for them, so maybe they can be brought up
to speed. I don't know where I can get an old booster unit like this.

Sherwin

 

[Andy]

sherwin dubren wrote:

I hear hissing
sounds coming from the booster, which I never heard on our
original unit.

Sounds like a fairly big air leak.

I think this is air escaping past the diaphragm.
We left the car with him, and I don't know what he is going to
do next. I told him we would try to locate a working booster
unit, but I think that is not very hopeful. Volvo was very
smart to put in this booster unit that cannot be repaired. There
is no kit for it that I know of, and I don't see a way to open
it.

I'm surprised that there's no-one around capable of reconditioning the
booster. You'll need a specialist brake place rather than a Volvo shop,
regardless.

The mechanic showed us a booster unit from a 240, and it
was too large and not compatible.

OK. This one may require a bit of 'outside the square' thinking,
provided the original booster can't be rebuilt.

While the 240 booster mightn't bolt right in, the end solution to this
might be *making* something fit. A booster of a similar physical size
from a 'regular' car (with parts still able to be purchased over the
counter) would be a good solution. May just require a little bit of
craftsmanship with the brackets. At the end of the day, they're not
overly complex devices.

Either way, see if you can find a specialist brake shop somewhere near
you.

And failing that - ask your local hot rod club/s how they'd workaround
this sort of thing. There's plenty of old cars cruising around with
entirely different (and better) braking systems crafted together from
more 'normal' parts. There's a fix for this somewhere.

And please, let us know how you get on

Cheers,
Andy.

 

[James Sweet]

They say a Volvo is for life. I don't think so. We may have to
junk this car because of this stupid problem.

Sherwin

Well let's not get carried away here. Even Volvo I don't think expected
many of these to still be on the road 40 years later! This is a classic
car, some parts will be hard to find, some things that are "not
rebuildable" will have to be rebuilt, fabricated, or something modern
adapted to fit. This is just the nature of the beast when dealing with
pretty much any classic. You can't expect replacements for every part on
the car to be manufactured forever. Sometimes you have to do some
searching, or get creative.

Even a new old stock booster is likely to be bad, rubber dries out and
cracks just sitting on the shelf.

 

[JDT2Q]

Sherwin - you don't say which country you are in but as you are fluent in
English I'm sure you will find an alternative source of help or maybe even
parts if you post a msg in the 140 series wants section.
The forum is much more active than this newsgroup.
Someone on the forum may have had similar problems.

Look here http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=7


Colin ( 2 of 1988 240GL's - only Volvo since 1982 )

 

[sherwin dubren]

Sherwin - you don't say which country you are in but as you are fluent in
English I'm sure you will find an alternative source of help or maybe even
parts if you post a msg in the 140 series wants section.
The forum is much more active than this newsgroup.
Someone on the forum may have had similar problems.

Look here http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=7


Colin ( 2 of 1988 240GL's - only Volvo since 1982 )

I live in the Chicago area.

I have posted a parts request on various volvo forums. So far,
only one negative reply. However, with the Labor Day weekend,
maybe something will come in next week. I even sent a request
to someone in Sweden, but I'm afraid it will cost me a few
Kroner, or two.

The idea of adapting another car's unit to the Volvo is of
course, a possiblity, but I would rather start with a Volvo
unit, if I can. I'm not sure if some of the earlier cars
than a 144 can be suitable. Seems like this kind of part for
anything earlier than a 240 series is getting harder to find.

I will report any successes or failures as they develop.

Thanks for all the replies,

Sherwin

 

[sherwin dubren]

Had two replies on replacement brake boosters.

One reply from the USA said he had one for 100 dollars
plus shipping, but did not know the condition of the unit.
My remark about putting a hand vacuum pump on it and seeing
if it holds a vacuum made the seller say he thought that
test was not adequate. How can you test a unit like that?


Another reply from Sweden said they had several units like
that, but they were sitting on a shelf for a long time, so
they also could not speak for their reliability. They want
a picture of our booster to verify a match. I thought there
was only one such unit for the Volvo 144's in 1969. They
said the units need to be checked, but again I don't know
how they do that.

Sherwin

 

[Leftie]

I live in the Chicago area.

I have posted a parts request on various volvo forums. So far,
only one negative reply. However, with the Labor Day weekend,
maybe something will come in next week. I even sent a request
to someone in Sweden, but I'm afraid it will cost me a few
Kroner, or two.

The idea of adapting another car's unit to the Volvo is of
course, a possiblity, but I would rather start with a Volvo
unit, if I can. I'm not sure if some of the earlier cars
than a 144 can be suitable. Seems like this kind of part for
anything earlier than a 240 series is getting harder to find.

I will report any successes or failures as they develop.

Thanks for all the replies,

Sherwin

Have you tried cross-checking the compatibility of the P1800/P1800ES
booster unit?

 

[sherwin dubren]

Have you tried cross-checking the compatibility of the P1800/P1800ES
booster unit?

The official Volvo web site replied that there is only one booster for
the 1969 Volvo 144, and they knew of no other model Volvo that could
be utilized. However, I spoke to a rebuilder in California today, and
he said there were actually two models of boosters for that car. One
was indeed unreparable. He described it as having crimps on two sides
of the outer circular body, and additionally, a band of metal. But,
he said there is a repairable version with crimps on only one side,
and no band of metal. I have not yet seen my car at the mechanic's
garage, so I don't know which one I have. If I can locate the
repairable version, I will send it to California for rebuilding. If
not, I will ask the people in California to find me one for
repairing. My Swedish mechanic thinks I should send the car to the
boneyard, but I think it still has a few years left in it. I should
do some body reinforcement work, but the rest of the car is fine.

Sherwin

 

[Jim]

   I took my volvo to a Swedish mechanic, who is still working at theage
   of 75.  I had faith in this guy, because he diagnosed a drive shaft
   problem that our regular mechanic missed completely.

   This time, I think he is trying to wiggle out of fixing it.  He is
   giving us erroneous info on what he thinks the problem is.  For
   example, he says our brake pads with imbedded metallic are causing
   a great deal of the problem.  I drove the car before it suddenly
   failed, and it had no problem stopping.  He put on a booster unit
   that was laying around his house for who knows how long, and it
   didn't work.  He thought it was an improvement, but the car still
   needs excessive pedal power to stop.  I kept running that test of
   putting constant pressure on the pedal and starting the engine.
   The pedal still does not move.  I asked him to put a vaccum pump
   on it for testing, and he evades me to do so.  I hear hissing
   sounds coming from the booster, which I never heard on our
   original unit.  I think this is air escaping past the diaphragm.
   We left the car with him, and I don't know what he is going to
   do next.  I told him we would try to locate a working booster
   unit, but I think that is not very hopeful.  Volvo was very
   smart to put in this booster unit that cannot be repaired.  There
   is no kit for it that I know of, and I don't see a way to open
   it.  The mechanic showed us a booster unit from a 240, and it
   was too large and not compatible.

   They say a Volvo is for life.  I don't think so.  We may have to
   junk this car because of this stupid problem.

                                  Sherwin

Another common issue with these brakes is for the calipers to seize a
little. My dads '67 did this to him 15 years ago and he took the
calipers off - soaked them in WD40 and forced them back with Vice-
Grips. Then push them out with the pedal, and repeat until they start
moving easier. I just bought a '68 and its having the same problem. A
check that might help confirm is if you drive it and park it, do the
brakes stay on a little making it hard to push when in neutral.