Mercedes engine in Volvo?

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by Jan Rutgers, Jan 17, 2005.

  1. Jan Rutgers

    Jan Rutgers Guest

    I want to set a mercedes diesel enigine in a Volvo 145. Is there anyone who
    has expirience with such an operation?
    Jan Rutgers, Amsterdam
     
    Jan Rutgers, Jan 17, 2005
    #1
  2. You would be better off putting a 120-150 bhp VW four cylinder diesel engine
    into the 145. It would be better matched to the car and cheaper than the one
    in a Mercedes Sprinter van. However to get this sort of power and usability
    from a Mercedes diesel you would need one which weighed a bit more than the
    VW engine and would probably upset the balance of the car. You could also
    run into trouble with the gearbox/bellhousing/propshaft set-up. Better to
    buy a 240 with VW six-cylinder engine and put it into the 145. You could use
    the 740 turbo version or the 760/940 turbo with intercooler version complete
    with the ZF autobox.

    Best of luck with whichever way you do it, Peter.
     
    Peter K L Milnes, Jan 22, 2005
    #2
  3. Jan Rutgers

    James Sweet Guest

    120-150 BHP? How? I know a guy with a number of Rabbits with that motor,
    according to him it's a whopping 55 bhp, and after riding in it I don't
    doubt it. The car is about 1000 lbs less than a 140 and can hardly maintain
    50 mph up an incline. Or are you referring to the modern (and excellent)
    turbodiesel used in the recent Golf TDi's?


    The 6 is rather long and quite heavy, not to mention the oiling problems in
    the cylinder head that lead to premature camshaft wear. Even the turbo
    intercooled version is only around 130hp, the N/A is 88. I'm not sure which
    would be easier, that or the Mercedes, but I do know that Mercedes has made
    some very good Diesel engines that are well known for being very long lived,
    VW on the other hand has made some rather poor Diesels, the 6 that Volvo
    used has an almost universal reputation of being a turd, just try to sell a
    Volvo with that motor in it, they go for half of less the price of a
    gasoline model.
     
    James Sweet, Jan 22, 2005
    #3
  4. Jan Rutgers

    Rob Guenther Guest

    He almost certainly means a new TDI (more then likely a Pumpe-Duese TDI
    too) - I'm a huge VW fan (as well as a Volvo fan) and their old diesel
    motors can barely move a VW, let alone a big Volvo (two people I work with
    own naturally aspirated 1.6L VW diesels........... their cars are scary slow
    to drive in - you basically have to drive them with the throttle as an
    on/off switch). If you had a NA diesel, with automatic and air-con, VW used
    to include a warning sticker about the lack of power - much like the airbag
    warning stickers of this generation of cars.
     
    Rob Guenther, Jan 22, 2005
    #4
  5. Jan Rutgers

    James Sweet Guest

    That would make sense, perhaps he's under the impression that the inline 6
    Volvo used in the 200 and 700 series Diesel cars has something in common
    with the modern VW Diesel engines aside from the logo stamped on the block
    and the type of fuel. The difference between the old 1980's generation and
    the modern generation is like night and day.
     
    James Sweet, Jan 22, 2005
    #5
  6. Mine is a modern VW six diesel with turbo and intercooler and has been tuned
    to produce 145 bhp and an awful lot more torque than it had before tuning.
    Yes it is a mechanically fuelled diesel and yes they can produce gains as
    good as an electronically tuned diesel provided you know what you are doing
    or have a tame expert.

    Cheers, Peter.
     
    Peter K L Milnes, Jan 22, 2005
    #6
  7. Jan Rutgers

    Alex Zepeda Guest

    The more modern VW diesel engines pale in comparison to just about every
    other diesel available out there (including some available in the US of
    A). Spendy special tools, VW quality, no thanks. Not to mention
    noisy. I'll take a Volvo D5 any day.

    As for the original subject, there are some Mercedes car diesels that
    would probably be a good match (the turbo five out of a W123 body comes to
    mind). The problem with a 140 is that the engine compartment was never
    designed to fit a long or heavy motor (unlike the 200 series chassis)..
    that's what the 164 was for.

    If space is a problem, an XD2S or XD3T out of a Peugeot 505 would be an
    excellent choice. They're 2.3L and 2.5L, respectively, four cylinder
    turbo diesel motors producing about 80hp and 100hp respectively. Compact,
    powerful, durable, and ancient. Probably as good a fit as any in a 140
    engine bay.

    If a VW motor were a requirement, there's always the five banger D20 (and
    presumably the D20T) that Volvo used in some of their non-USA models --
    2.0L five cylinder.. more apt to fit in a 140. Why anyone would go with
    such a clunker is a bit beyond me tho.

    One of the problems with going with a more modern engine is that most of
    these engines were only used in FWD applications. In the case of the D5,
    this is less of a concern as you can still find RWD transmissions (from
    the 960) to mate up to it. The older motors (OM617, XD2S/XD3T, D20, etc)
    benefit from being used (almost?) exclusively in RWD cars.
     
    Alex Zepeda, Jan 23, 2005
    #7
  8. Jan Rutgers

    James Sweet Guest

    I think we were talking about Diesels available in North America, there's
    not much to choose from aside from big trucks, but the VW TDI is arguably
    one of the best available in a passenger car here. I'd love test drive a
    Volvo with a D5, I've heard good things about them but they're simply not
    available, never seen so much as a picture under the hood of one.

    We had a flood of such nasty hack job Diesels back in the arealy 80's that
    unfortunatly they got a very bad reputation in general, the Golf TDI is
    helping to change that stereotype but it'll still take a long time for the
    general population to start accepting Diesel passenger cars.
     
    James Sweet, Jan 23, 2005
    #8
  9. Jan Rutgers

    Alex Zepeda Guest

    The original poster is in .nl, with access to a wide variety of diesels.
    In the US, all of the diesels I mentioned were available (except the
    D5). The new TDIs I've heard out here have been somewhat noisier than I
    expected.

    The *new* TDIs also require some frighteningly expensive tools to do the
    timing belts.. not to mention the dubious VW build quality (the older
    diesels were probably fairly reliable because VW hadn't stuck electronic
    engine management on them). It's pretty easy to label something the best
    when there's no competition. Sure MBZ may still be importing diesels, but
    they don't compete with the VW models at all.

    There were some lousy diesels in the 80s (GM, BMW, and VW all laid some
    big stinkers) , but there were some great engines that never really got a
    chance. The Peugeot motors (XD2S, XD3T), the Nissan LD28 (of which we
    never got the turbo version), the Isuzu car motors, etc never caught on.

    If you've never seen a picture of a D5 (it looks pretty much like any
    other white block), use Google.
     
    Alex Zepeda, Jan 23, 2005
    #9
  10. Jan Rutgers

    Rob Guenther Guest

    Pale in comparison? So why are they touted as some of the worlds most
    advanced diesels? My 99.5 Golf is catching up on our 93 Volvo in Kms (120k
    vs 160k), and it's had no engine problems - the VW quality problems affected
    the gasoline engines, and electric window regulators.... Diesels were
    unaffected, except by poor quality MAF sensors, this was a supplier problem,
    however.

    There are a lot of V-dub drivers at work, no one has had an engine problem.

    We've had better luck with our Volvos for reliability, but our VW's never
    have left us stranded whereas the Volvo technically has (dead battery...
    what can ya do!).
     
    Rob Guenther, Jan 24, 2005
    #10
  11. No wonder you Americans don't like diesel cars if they only put the
    non-turbo charged versions in the cars you buy. The one I am referring to is
    1.9 Litres with Pump-Duse fuelling, which is about the latest offering from
    VW/Audi. They also produce a very good V6 diesel as well as a monstrous 5
    litre V10 diesel for the Touareg and Phaeton vehicles. I think Audi use a V8
    diesel as well. All of these engines make a few of your American diesels
    look sick, as do the BMW offerings in 4, 6 and v8 cylinder types. Best of
    all the European diesel engines (except for some Italian Marine engines) is
    the V16, four turbo, 16 Litre Volvo FH16 with 685 bhp and 2200lbsft torque
    at 1250 rpm.

    Cheers, Peter.
     
    Peter K L Milnes, Jan 27, 2005
    #11
  12. Jan Rutgers

    Rob Guenther Guest

    The 1.9L 100Hp PD engine is pretty much the only diesel engine sold in a
    Canadian passenger car right now... My friend has one in his Jetta, it's a
    very nice and QUIET motor - plenty of around town power.

    Where does Volvo use that V16? Trucks or for their Penta marine engines?

    Sure as hell not in their cars ;-)... Wish they had the D5 over here.
     
    Rob Guenther, Jan 27, 2005
    #12
  13. Jan Rutgers

    Mike F Guest

    No, check out the Passat. It has the 2.0 Pump-Duse fuelling engine that
    Peter mentions. 134 hp and 247 lb-ft! I wouldn't buy a new Golf, etc.
    with the older 1.9, I'll bet they will get the new motor sooner rather
    than later.

    At the top end of the price range, the Mercedes E class sedan is also
    available in diesel - the E320CDI. 201 hp and 369 lb-ft!

    Also the V10 diesel is available in the Touareg - although that may not
    be considered a passenger car.


    --
    Mike F.
    Thornhill (near Toronto), Ont.

    Replace tt with t (twice!) and remove parentheses to email me directly.
    (But I check the newsgroup more often than this email address.)
     
    Mike F, Jan 27, 2005
    #13
  14. It is their latest tractor unit Rob. You can get sixteenth scale models from
    the Volvo accessory shop. I would love to get one with a maximum size box
    trailer and turn it into a mobile house!! What a caravan unit that would
    make. I don't know why they restrict the hp on their exports to the North
    American continent, it seems such a ridiculous thing to do.

    Cheers, Peter.
    <snipped>
     
    Peter K L Milnes, Jan 28, 2005
    #14
  15. Jan Rutgers

    Rob Guenther Guest

    Tractor motor.... that would explain the power. :) Sounds big!
     
    Rob Guenther, Jan 28, 2005
    #15
  16. Jan Rutgers

    Rob Guenther Guest

    How could I forget their other cars (I'm at the dealer enough for
    servicing)... Yah the older 1.9L is mediocre... Needs more power, and the
    EGR valves clog up with the soot it produces (it's our fuel I think)... It's
    a costly motor to maintain, I know, I own one.... When a 40 grand Volvo is
    much cheaper to maintain then a 20 grand Volkswagen you know there is
    something wrong... especially when the 6 year older Volvo drives nicer and
    gives me the exact same (if not better) feeling that it is reliable and
    won't let me down.... I think with the KM's I drive the Volvo might cost me
    more tho - and it doesn't have modern features like CD player and I don't
    really need the 200 horsepower just for commuting - plus its aweful in
    winter.
     
    Rob Guenther, Jan 28, 2005
    #16
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