my friend and his car are making me nuts

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by Will Paramore, Nov 27, 2004.

  1. My friend has an 85 wagon with the jetronics ll injection . ( I
    think )
    It started having a "warm running issue " Ran well when cold
    but after it warmed up would fall on it's face at 2500 or so .
    (Sometimes it would clear-up momentarily ) Of course he drove it until
    it quit . After some searching he found that the coil had erupted
    like Vesuvius . ( lots of black ugly ) New coil , cap and rotor .
    Now it won't run at all . I've been sort of helping him with this
    and so far and the only test it didn't pass( in the book I have )
    is throttle closed on the TPS . ( I think ) He pulled the injectors
    so he could see the pattern and "tells " me that 4-6 crank
    revolutions nets about 2 teaspoons ( or more ) from each injector but
    the spray pattern looks fine . That seems a bit much to me but then
    ................. Also he says that while you can watch the plugs fire
    in sequence , the injectors all go off at once .
    This does not seem copacetic to me , but then................
    I've making a living out mehanical repair for 40+ years and can ,
    with the right info, usually deal with this stuff but this is driving
    me towards the edge ( my friend too) He tried another ECU . No joy ,
    SOSDD , so I'm sort of pleading for some suggestions before my friend
    becomes my adversary and I have to hide when I see his ex's car drive
    up .
    Any direction would be greatly appreciated . Will
     
    Will Paramore, Nov 27, 2004
    #1
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  2. Dump the friend.

    No! Only kidding....

    It is normal for the injectors to fire together - in fact, they are wired in
    parallel, although each has its own ballast resistor.

    The fuel delivery does sound excessive, but we are getting the info second
    hand. I'm worried about the "throttle closed" issue when the injector output
    seems so high. I'm assuming the car is a 700 series (740 or 760) at that
    age, but please clear it up if that is not true. In those cars, the TPS is
    just a microswitch that is very finely adjusted. You should hear it click
    softly when the throttle is cracked the tiniest bit. Idle will be very high
    if the switch doesn't close at idle.

    Do pull the vacuum line off the fuel pressure regulator. If there is
    gasoline in the hose, the regulator is bad.

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, Nov 27, 2004
    #2
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  3. Will Paramore

    James Sweet Guest


    The spark and the injection behavior sound normal at this point. Did he take
    the plug wires off when he replaced the coil? If you have the firing order
    off by 180 degrees the plugs will all fire when the exhaust valve is open
    and you get no ignition.
     
    James Sweet, Nov 27, 2004
    #3
  4. 200 or 700 car?

    Cheers, Peter.
     
    Peter K L Milnes, Nov 27, 2004
    #4
  5. Well I guess I'm going to have to actually go look at it . Maybe
    something really simple that he missed . It''s a 740 with a b23f in
    it . Oddly he said sometimes it would clear itself momentarily if you
    turned the blower on or off ? I'll get back on this . Thanks
    gentlemen .
    Will
     
    Will Paramore, Nov 29, 2004
    #5
  6. Will Paramore

    James Sweet Guest


    A B23F? What year is it? I thought the 740's all had B230F's, the only B23
    was the B23FT in the '84 760.
     
    James Sweet, Nov 29, 2004
    #6
  7. Will Paramore

    Jim Carriere Guest

    James, didn't the B230F not appear until 1985? IIRC, the 740 debuted
    before then.
     
    Jim Carriere, Nov 30, 2004
    #7
  8. I did go and look and it was something simple he missed .
    I'm hoping that the warm run issue was the coil going bad and that
    the 2 fouled plugs were the result . When he gets it all back
    together we shall see . I really appreciate all of the response .
    My book says nothing
    about ALL the injectors working at the same time and I would've
    probably been a couple miles down the garden path without that tidbit
    ..
    It very well may be a 230F . I remember telling a doctor once
    how lucky he was that he only had 2 basic models to deal with and they
    didn't change from year to year .
    I'm looking forward to seeing a smile on my friends face for the
    first time in 2 weeks . Thanks again , Will
     
    Will Paramore, Nov 30, 2004
    #8
  9. Will Paramore

    James Sweet Guest

    Yes the B230F appeared in 1985, the 740 appeared in 1986. Previous to that
    there was the 760 which came out in (I think) 1983.
     
    James Sweet, Nov 30, 2004
    #9
  10. Well.................... It ran well enough to show at my place this
    AM , but that's about it . It is a 230F with CIS . It idles OK but
    goes competely on it's face at anything over 1500 rpm . At idle the
    timing is as it should be
    but when you try to run it up , the timing mark goes berserk to the
    advance side . ( something like 50+ degrees ) The spark is not very
    stable . Jumps 3-5 degrees at idle and disappears altogehter at higher
    rpm . No vacuum advance on this one . Just for giggles I tried
    checking out the dist. pick-up .
    Basically open circuits no matter which way you went . I can't
    imagine it would operational like that but then
    .................................... If you unplug the CIS , the
    idle changes ( like I think it would ) . I sent him off to find
    another
    dist. and or pick-up in the hopes that
    ..................................
    Since I deal mostley with "vintage" stuff and boats , things
    like this are
    an adventure into unexplored territiory .
    Thanks for bearing with me on this , Will
     
    Will Paramore, Nov 30, 2004
    #10
  11. Will Paramore

    James Sweet Guest



    I've seen a couple problems similar to this, though we didn't get CIS B230's
    over here, nor CIS injected 700 series cars but on an old CIS 240 the little
    button contact in the center of the distributor cap broke off once and
    caused very similar symptoms. On another car, the pickup in the distributor
    had a loose connection causing the circuit to open as soon as the vacuum
    advance activated. You said this doesn't have vacuum advance though? Doesn't
    it have a vac hose to the ignition module?
     
    James Sweet, Nov 30, 2004
    #11
  12. The dist. mounts directly to the aft end of the cam . No vac. lines
    anywhere near it . New cap and rotor . 3 wires from the pick-up . 1
    is a bare stranded ( almost like sheathing , don't ask me how I know )
    The content of the dist. is 1 ( one) hall effect sensor and the
    interrupter wheel . Ohmeter reads open anyway you check it . I can
    only hope this isn't something that someone fell in love with on
    vacation and just had to have it . Will
     
    Will Paramore, Dec 1, 2004
    #12
  13. Will Paramore

    James Sweet Guest


    Sounds like exactly the same setup the LH Jettronic injection cars over here
    have. The hall sensor is actually quite robust, I've heard of them failing
    but it's not often. I don't recall what they'll read with an ohm meter but
    it's not a reliable way to test them since they're a semiconductor that
    needs power to function. The outer sheath of the wire is the shield and
    likely also provides the ground connection if not through the engine block.
    One of the other wires should be power and the other signal. The ignition
    control box on a 700 is mounted up under the driver's feat on the pedal
    bracket, at least it is on a LHD car, I'm not sure which side it's on for
    RHD. There's also a knock sensor on the block under the intake manifold, if
    this is damaged it could cause the timing to be erratic, but unless it's
    physically busted it's probably ok.
     
    James Sweet, Dec 1, 2004
    #13
  14. Well .......... This is a U.S. car and the book I have says NADA
    about a knock sensor or ignition control box . I assume this is
    something like Gm used to do with what they called ESC ( electronic
    spark control )
    My book ( now in the fireplace ) says that the ignition is
    controlled by the ECU totally . Armed with this new info , I'm going
    to look for the probably faulty ignition box and if I find it
    .................................... This makes more sense as to why
    the timing is so erratic ( among other things)
    Thank you James ! Will
     
    Will Paramore, Dec 1, 2004
    #14
  15. Will Paramore

    James Sweet Guest

    A US car? I thought you said it was CIS injected? US spec cars all have
    LH-Jettronic injection which is an electronic system controlled by a
    computer mounted to the right of the passenger's feet. CIS is mechanical
    with an aiflow meter that controls fuel flow directly.
     
    James Sweet, Dec 2, 2004
    #15
  16. And LH has a separate Ignition Control Unit with a power amplifier stage to
    drive the coil.

    Cheers, Peter.
     
    Peter K L Milnes, Dec 2, 2004
    #16
  17. I did locate the ICU in the car . My friend thought it was an amp for
    the radio . This explains the symptoms he's had from the day he
    bought the car . The "not quite as good as it could be " , the
    blown-up coil , the "OK" cold running and the erratic spark syndrome
    it's got now . Something that was "off " when he bought it ( going
    south ) and deteriorated to this point .
    Makes alot more sense to me since it has never seemed to be a fuel
    issue . He's off to find another one today . We will see .
    Thanks Gentlemen , Will
     
    Will Paramore, Dec 4, 2004
    #17
  18. Will Paramore

    James Sweet Guest


    I forgot about the power stage, don't forget to check that. It's a small
    block mounted to the inner fender near the nose of the car, I forget which
    side it's on.
     
    James Sweet, Dec 4, 2004
    #18
  19. Will Paramore

    will350 Guest

    Power stage ! What a misleading name for such an innocuous ,
    innocent looking , hard to locate , IMPORTANT part .
    When we did locate it , turns out that a dealer service
    department had replaced it with the wrong part( Always serviced by the
    dealer , even had "Volvo" plugs in it ) . There was one in the fender
    well ( laying there ) as well as the one I took out. An 8 pin
    connector on the operational one , 6 pins on the original .
    Got a junk yard replacement with 6 pins and that cured it .
    An explaination for all the symptoms it had but would have NEVER
    thought that would throw the timing like it did . Of course it was the
    LAST thing I changed . Hope this can save some aggravation for someone
    else . Thanks , Will
     
    will350, Dec 13, 2004
    #19
  20. Will Paramore

    James Sweet Guest

    Dang, usually one can assume that there's at least the *correct* part there,
    if not a working one.
     
    James Sweet, Dec 13, 2004
    #20
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