Removing Turbo

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by cajuemichica, Jun 20, 2007.

  1. cajuemichica

    cajuemichica Guest

    I know my volvo 740 will loose power but my turbo decided to quit
    recently and my mechanic quoted $2000 to fix it, which is like twice
    the cost of my car nowadays. The turbo failed I think by cracking a
    seal or breaking it or something. Tons of smoke in the exhaust (smoke
    so thick I couldn't see the road behind me while I limped to the
    mechanic).

    Now, I have lived in this small town for a while, and I go for up to a
    year without using the turbo. I only drive in slow streets.

    Now the question is this: I am working on removing the exhaust
    manifold (almost there, one more nut). What will happen if I block the
    oil intake to the turbo and oil return and remove the turbo? I don't
    know how powerful or how exactly does the oil pump getting oil to the
    turbo works.

    I just want my car to roll, I and the prices for getting a turbo even
    a rebuilt are too high. Second hand looks ok, but I don't want to have
    to worry about this again in another 5K miles or whatever an used
    turbo decide to last. I might as well just remove it. Any encouraging
    words, or just go buy used and live with it?
     
    cajuemichica, Jun 20, 2007
    #1
  2. cajuemichica

    Mr. V Guest

    Don't do it, you'll be sorry.

    The exhaust driven turbine is not spinning now, as the bearing is
    shot: this will prevent the exhaust gases from leaving the engine
    quickly enough for the car to run correctly.

    It is sort of like sticking a potato in the exhaust pipe.

    Now, were you to plug the oil orifices and then remove the exhaust
    manifold with the turbo on it and substitue a different used exhaust
    manifold without a turbo (normally aspirated, or N.A.), you would
    still have problems.

    That is because the turbo engine uses low compression pistons.

    It would be seriously underpowered, bad enough it probably couldn't
    make it up a hill of any size, let alone run correctly.

    Your best option: bolt on a used exhause manifold w/ turbo and hope
    for the best.
     
    Mr. V, Jun 20, 2007
    #2
  3. cajuemichica

    Peter Adler Guest

    You can run without a turbo. As you say, you've been doing it for years.
    You'll just be one of the more sedate Volvos on the road. Most of the time
    in suburban driving, and maybe even on the highway, you won't miss it.
    Blocking the oil (and water?) lines is easy. The question is, can you -
    easily and economically - remove the turbo and connect your exhaust header
    directly? Probably not. I'm not aware of any header system that bolts on in
    place of the turbo. Doesn't mean there isn't one - just I'm not aware of it.
    If there is such a part, chances are it'll be a small-volume item, at a
    correspondingly high price.
    Can you fix the seal? These are replaceable. Check with some of the
    turbo rebuild outfits, or maybe places like IPD. Remember, you aren't too
    worried about your turbo performing to spec - just not blowing oil.
    Alternatively, pull a turbo at your local rustyard. Make sure you can bring
    it back if it doesn't work. They usually run adequately for 200K or so. Get
    one at 100K and you've got half a lifetime left in it. Before you pull it,
    take a look at the tail pipe. If it's been leaking oil badly (and, of
    course, for other reasons too) there'll be a thick, soft, black coating of
    carbon. If the pipe looks normal, it's probably worth a risk.

    Pete (fP)
     
    Peter Adler, Jun 20, 2007
    #3
  4. cajuemichica

    Tim.. Guest


    The easiest thing to do is remove wheels off the shaft of the shot turbo,
    plug the oil feed and drain lines (disconnected) leave the water connected
    as it should be (if its a later watercooled turbo) then re-install the
    turbo. Alot easier than messing about with different manifolds / pipework
    etc...

    Tim..
     
    Tim.., Jun 20, 2007
    #4
  5. cajuemichica

    James Sweet Guest


    Either find a good used turbo, rebuild yours, or sell the car and buy one
    without a turbo. It's a lot of screwing around to remove it, you'll require
    much of the intake and exhaust system from a non-turbo car, you'll have to
    find a reliable way to plug the oil supply and return lines, and in the end
    you'll have a dangerously anemic hack job of a car with signficantly less
    power than the non-turbo version had, and almost zero resale value. In a
    nutshell, don't even try it. If you're really desparate, you can get a new
    knockoff turbo on ebay for <$200 which should hold up ok to stock power
    levels.
     
    James Sweet, Jun 21, 2007
    #5
  6. cajuemichica

    cajuemichica Guest

    Thank you guys for the advise. I like the one about removing the
    wheels of the turbo best. Sooo, I can just block the oil feed line and
    there will be no problem? Say if I put a swagelok plug which mounts in
    a steel tube like kids play and can take plenty of pressure I should
    be fine. The engine or oil pump will not "explode" or something out of
    having that oil line blocked? Just double checking... I just don't
    have a clue what kind of pump is an oil pump.

    Anyways today I was trying again to remove the last bolt of the
    exhaust manifold and it beat me. There isn't enough space to put the
    rachet, and the open wrench I have was slipping on the hex head...
    drat! I will try again, now that I borrowed a closed wrench. This is
    the first time I try playing the mechanic, is there an obvious trick
    of the trade I am missing? or some magic tool all mechanics should
    have (besides a better brain)? Thanks.

    Same problem with the two bolts of the return oil line, and the bolt
    at the manifold holder underneath. I'll keep working on it. Those are
    the very last ones, after that I can take the turbo off and decide the
    next step.

    Just an update from today: I read somewhere that you could check the
    play in the turbo to decide if it was rebuildable (if play was uniform
    and <1/16"). So I removed the exhaust (those were the 3 easiest nuts
    to get out). I touched the turbine axis and it has a play of about 1/2
    inch :))) It sounded like the dice in a yahtzee game :)) I suspect
    rebuilding is out of the question, I very much suspect the turbine and
    the casing didn't just meet, but sleep together and had kids :)))
    Funny thing is that I actually never heard anything while I was
    driving.

    By the way, somebody was caution me about the resale value. I don't
    think my car has any resale value. I offered the car to a mechanic
    that collects volvos and he said he would pay $200. I rather give it
    away for free than let it go for that. And I much rather play the
    mechanic on the car and learn something than either of those options.
    Although I am in no hurry (I bike around) I just can't find a car I
    like to replace the volvo. The japanese tin cans scare me (corolla,
    sentra, civic), old american cars I just can't trust they will roll
    without breaking the bank, the old SUVs are like 10mpg, and actually
    have only like 3 stars crash ratings... I don't know, maybe I hoping
    for too much, but the Volvo was such a great fit for me. Anyway,
    thanks everybody for your help and comments. I really appreciate them.

    chc
     
    cajuemichica, Jun 21, 2007
    #6
  7. cajuemichica

    James Sweet Guest


    I just never understood the mentality of half assed hack jobs like this.
    Unless you're stuck on the side of the road and have to get home, any job
    worth doing is worth doing right. You're doing 95% of the work for 2% of the
    result of just repairing the turbo you already have or sticking a good used
    one on. I see bastardized cars like this in wrecking yards from time to time
    and always have to wonder what was going through the person's head at the
    time. It makes me cringe.
     
    James Sweet, Jun 21, 2007
    #7
  8. cajuemichica

    KLB Guest

    Have to admit that James has a point. Seems like you are doing most of the
    work and ending up with a poor result.

    If you are keen to learn then why not look into a second hand turbo and
    finish the learning process. What you will learn will outweigh the cost of
    the second hand turbo.

    Be a proud DIY'er but if you have to pay somebody to do all the work then I
    may agree, turf the turbo.
     
    KLB, Jun 21, 2007
    #8
  9. cajuemichica

    cajuemichica Guest

    I just never understood the mentality of half assed hack jobs like this.
    Maybe you didn't read my message. It is true, I might buy a second
    hand turbo. But I don't use it much or at all, and I don't want it to
    fail again. The resale value of my car is technically ZERO. What is
    going through my head is: I DON'T NEED A TURBO. Why the hell to get
    one for, when I can live without the trouble of having one. In other
    words, If it isn't there it won't break. It is ME driving not you. I
    know my roads, I know what I need the car for. I don't take trips, I
    don't go in the highway. I can only drive the car for 1 mile trips at
    night, and to go grocery shopping once every 15 days, in the steep
    hills of central Illinois. I haven't seen the shadow of a hill in 8
    years, and I don't expect to see one now.

    When you go and buy my car out of the junkyard you can buy a rebuilt
    turbo for $600 install it and enjoy the car. I myself might consider
    spending $300 on an used turbo, Install it and have it fail on me
    again because I don't know how to do the stupid job. For all I know, I
    probably won't be able to undo the darn thing anyway. I don't want to
    put money on the table that I will loose anyway. There is no
    recovering the money regardless of what I do.

    Does that answer your question of why "half assed hack jobs" are done
    for? They are done, so you can achieve some sort of result with
    minimum investment when you estimate the return otherwise or anyway to
    be negative.

    If I can't loose the last nuts I'll have to trash the car anyway, is
    it that hard to understand. When you are a mechanic with experience
    all is simple and rosy. Right now I am just thinking of salvaging
    something, whatever I can.

    Anyway, thank for your opinion.

    chc
     
    cajuemichica, Jun 21, 2007
    #9
  10. cajuemichica

    Mr. V Guest

    Stuck exhaust manifold nuts can be a real nightmare.

    Start by spraying it very liberally with a penetrant, and let it soak
    overnight.

    I use PB Blaster.

    Next, you need to be able to get a wrench on it.

    Do you have a ratchet with extension and one of those swivels to put
    on the end?

    If you can get an angle on it, that is the way to go, otherwise is the
    closed end of a hand wrench, preferably one with a slight angle to it,
    and work it off.

    Just be patient: work on cars is one endless process of problem
    solving.

    If all else fails, perhaps you could chisel the nut off, provided you
    can get the correct angle.
     
    Mr. V, Jun 21, 2007
    #10
  11. cajuemichica

    z Guest

    Just do an engine (nonturbo) swap out of a junker? Maybe sell off the
    old engine to recoup some?
     
    z, Jun 21, 2007
    #11
  12. Predictably, this question comes up fairly often. I haven't heard of anybody
    who actually removed a turbo; you are probably seeing it is not a trivial
    thing. The results are likely to be worse than you expect, given the low
    compression ratio of the turbo engine. You might get better performance
    using a dog team to pull the car around.

    BTW - have you verified the problem is not just crankcase pressure from
    blockages or restrictions in the crankcase ventilation system? Our '85 765T
    began creating a massive smoke screen from the exhaust when the ventilation
    got bad; the pressure caused the oil to back up in the drain and overflow
    into the exhaust. Cleaning the ventilation fixed that. Removing the oil
    filler cap and trying to blow through the hose at the turbo inlet should
    produce the sort of pressure and flow you would get blowing out a candle. If
    it feels like you are blowing through a soda straw something is blocked.

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, Jun 22, 2007
    #12
  13. cajuemichica

    Gary Heston Guest

    [ ... ]

    If the housing isn't damaged, the turbo may rebuildable with just
    a cartridge--the center part and wheels as an assembly. If neither
    the housing or wheels are damaged, you can probably rebuild it for
    the price of bearings and seals. Check around for independent turbo
    rebuild shops; you should be able to find a cartridge for less than
    $500 and a DIY rebuild kit in the $100 range.

    Tip: If you rebuild it yourself, mark the alignment of the housings
    to the center by scribing lines across the joints _before_ removing
    the housings. There's no one way that they go on; they're oriented
    at different angles relative to the cartridge depending upon the
    application. If you opt to replace the cartridge yourself, mark the
    housings relative to things like oil line connections on the cartridge.

    Otherwise, if you find a used one with little play in the shaft, it
    should be good for a long time. Keep the oil changed...


    Gary
     
    Gary Heston, Jun 23, 2007
    #13
  14. cajuemichica

    cajuemichica Guest

    Ok, another update.

    I just have the turbo and manifold in my hands. Uhu!! Actually the
    suggestion of getting swivel ratchet dice was the solution. $15 well
    spent on Autozone for a set of 6. These are the ones that have like
    double articulation. That way you can rotate the nut making force from
    quite an angle. It was just a charm, there is some magic tools after
    all. It had to put quite some force into it though. When it finally
    gave way, I wasn't sure I had loosen the screw or broken it. Anyway, I
    am a happy dog now.

    Assuming I can get the turbo off the manifold (I hope the worse part
    is past), I think I will try buying the used turbo. The only thing I
    am kind of concerned is that the return oil tube became loose from the
    engine, and I don't see how it was attached to the engine. It was not
    a screw and I can't believe it was a just a pressure fitting in place.
    The Haynes manual is not really that helpful there. I wonder if
    somebody would like to comment... I mean I will try to put it back,
    but I really have no a clue how it went there.

    BTW the only other thing is that I couldn't loose the oil feed line
    from the engine (the nut is just behind other stuff and inaccessible),
    so to actually get the turbo out I had to bend that line out of the
    way. Let's hope it doesn't break. I will remove it now that there is
    space and clean it well. I will update again once I have done some
    progress. Thanks a lot to everybody for the help. It never ceases to
    amaze me how awesome the internet is. It is just such an empowering
    thing. It is in reality one if not the one most marvelous thing in
    modern civilization.

    Anyway, thanks guys.

    ch
     
    cajuemichica, Jun 23, 2007
    #14
  15. cajuemichica

    James Sweet Guest

    It just pressure fits, it bolts to the turbo and that holds it, the return
    oil is not pressurized.


    You can get it with an open end wrench, if the wrench is too thick a bench
    grinder can fix that. I usually just leave the line attached to the block
    though.
     
    James Sweet, Jun 24, 2007
    #15
  16. cajuemichica

    blurp Guest

    If you send the turbo out for a rebuild make sure you get the oil feed
    line replaced too. I had this work done and the oil feed was NOT
    replaced and the turbo failed 4 months later... replacing the oil feed
    tube was a requirement for warranty coverage!

    Just one more thing to keep in mind.

    blurp
     
    blurp, Jun 25, 2007
    #16
  17. cajuemichica

    Roadie Guest

    The resale value of your car is completely irrelevant to the decision
    of whether to repair or not. You could go out and buy another used
    car for $5,000. Or you could spend $2,000 to have a mechanic repair
    this car. Or you could spend $1,000 for a rebuilt turbo and do the
    work yourself. Or you could drive without a turbo. It's your choice,
    but don't clutter up the discussion with a lot of irrelevant
    information. What you need is transportation so figure out the way
    that makes the most sense for your driving needs given the money that
    you have to spend on car repairs.


    Does your state have emissions testing? If so, consider that the car
    might fail. If that is not a problem and you are willing to live with
    a car that will likely be underpowered and get worse milage than with
    a turbo then go ahead.

    Don't waste your money on a junkyard turbo. It will be likely as worn
    as yours.
     
    Roadie, Jun 25, 2007
    #17
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