Replacing my 1990 240? Alternatives?

My 1990 240 (bought in 2001 for $3800 with 104,000 miles and now
having 197,000) was in to the shop today after developing a knocking
or tapping noise in the engine which sounds like perhaps a cam
follower or something like that (the cam followers were replaced and
valve clearance was set at 95,000 miles, before I bought the car). I
took it to Glasgow Automotive in St. Paul MN, which has a good
reputation locally as a Volvo specialist, and had them give it the
once over. The short version of his advice was "put it on Craigslist
and buy another car."

The long list of problems includes: new brake junction block and
fluid, oil trap/flame trap replacement (crank case pressure tested at
0 to -.05 with some leaks from the front seal and valve cover gasket
noted), headlights go out when the hi-beam switch is activated, needs
new outer and inner tie rod ends/steering rod, new control arm
bushings, new rear transmission seal/possibly bushing/possibly flange
(the bushing has been replaced twice and seal three times in past
93,000 miles already, as well as once before I bought the car). All
told better than $2000 in parts and labor before all is said and done.
And that doesn't yet include fixing the tapping noise in the engine
(which sounds like a loose or cracked cam follower).

The car is structurally sound in terms of body and chassis and could
be a good deal for someone who can do some or most of this work
themselves. I can do some of the easy stuff (like replacing the
probable bad headlight hi-beam relay) but not a lot of the rest. Lack
of skills, lack of somewhere to work other than on the street in front
of my house, lack of time and frankly lack of interest in doing this
kind of work are also factors. I like doing some simple things on the
car, but most of this stuff is beyond me.

Anyway, while bummed out because this has been my favorite car ever, I
started looking around at the local Craigslistings and found that
there are at the moment few 240s for sale and most of them look pretty
used up. But there are quite a few 850s. How are these for durability, longevity, total cost of ownership

Thanks!

 

After '93 - which you should avoid, and early '94 as well - the 850
is supposedly ok. We went from a 240 to a '95 Camry, though, and have no
regrets. If you want a firmer ride just get a Camry four and put stiffer
struts on it. The Camry is more like the 240 in design philosophy than
you'd think, given the different architectures.

 

The only true replacement for a 240 is another 240.

The mid to later 850s are ok, and the 740s, 940s, and S/V90s are all
nice cars, drive one and you might like it, but it won't feel like your 240.

On one hand the repairs could be a lot of money, on the other hand, cars
are expensive, and for less than the cheapest POS new car you could buy,
the 240 could be restored to near new. Keep in mind too that any older
used car will probably have a laundry list of needs, if not as major as
what you have.

 

Your 240 seems to have a hard life, its very unusual to have all these
things going, but oil leaks and rubbers do tend to need replaced every
10 years or so. If you have left these things too long 'as its just an
old car' then the service bills will mount up and when you get an
unusual but expensive single problem you feel you need a new car.
Perhaps many of the problems went unnoticed and this more specialist
shop will bring the car up to a good standard.

There is almost never a need for a new car, particularly galvanised
Volvo's. Parts can be replaced and don't usually cost too much.

Tie rod end very unusual (but I'm not a 240 expert), steering rods not
uncommon but usually caused by dosed rubber gators. If you live in a
more rural area with rough roads then maybe you need to have these
things checked more often.

A blocked flame trap and cracked follower seems to indicate lack of oil
changes.

The bushing that keeps going seems like there is something else wrong
that noone has identified. If you fix it make sure you tell the shop
how many times its been done (or was it them?).

I have a 87 360 (similar engine) with 199K miles and no problems like
cracked follower..I'd be really surprised if thats what it is. The
follower should not crack and is not stressed atall. The top end on
those cars is the best available IMO and only frustrated by severe lack
of oil changes. My 95 940 has 150K on it and no significant problems
with bushes, but top strut mount did pop out needed replaced, but I do
change things when they need done.

$2000 doesn't sound all that bad if this is a new shop for you and they
have just identified some unknown problems. But also if the car has not
been properly serviced then maybe the Engine is not happy and its time
to say goodbye. A 240 Engine should never have problems like that.

I'd definately recommend a 900 series over an 850 for reliability but
the 850 will get better mileage. The LPT (low pressure Turbos) offer
the best mileage and power option (30MPG-UK), non turbo too slow, and
full turbo drinks heavily on fuel (24MPG-UK). The 900 is a small step
down in reliability as they have used alot of plastic, like on the
clutch pedal which have given me problems but its not very common, and
I've seen a few switch problems otherwise very similar in construction
to the 240 and fully galvanised, unlike the 850. Most 850s I've seen
for the same money are in a very poor condition and really not as
durable as the 900s.

 

As James said the only true replacement is another 240.

I have 2 of 1988 240 GL's and am in the UK.
I have owned them for about 5 and 3 years respectively but owned only
Volvo's since 1982.
The first one in 1982 was a 1977 240GL Auto that I kept for 13 years.
The price new from a Volvo dealer in 1988 of each of these cars was around
£11,000 to £12,000 pounds from internet sources.
Applying an index link from 1988 on that figure equates to an equivalent
cost in today's money of about £24,000 pounds.
I could buy a new small car today in the UK for less than £7,000 pounds,
that puts a relative quality value on the cars I have and the car you have.
This obviously only applies to 240's in good to excellent condition today.
A 1988/9 240 GLT recently sold on eBay here in the UK for over £3,000
pounds. That's exceptional in the UK for a car of that age.
In other words they were quite an expensive car at the time.
Take stock of the build quality of what you have before jumping to a rash
decision.
Replacement of consumables should be factored in as an expected expense for
all cars.
Occasional non consumable mechanical woes, if not major, are just a blip on
the cost of running my cars.
I had to buy a new front calliper a few months ago and it was about £70, it
was urgent and not eBay but what is the occasional £70 to keep a car of that
quality roadworthy. I fitted it myself.

Both my cars are, in the main, maintained by me and on a limited budget.
One has 104kmiles and the other 138kmiles.
They are both good bodily. The 104k one being excellent.
If I were to rely wholly on maintenance from a garage the cost of
ownership would escalate and to a prohibitively expensive degree if the
garage was a Volvo dealership.
The cars are easy to work on although I acknowledge your point about having
no-where to work on your car.
More worryingly lack of time and especially lack of interest in maintaining
your car yourself will probably determine your path but don't exclude the
possibility of seeking out a Volvo specialist garage or mechanic as opposed
to a Volvo dealership.
In my experience Volvo dealerships are very expensive on both parts and
labour.

I buy things on eBay to keep in stock for my cars even though I didn't need
them at the time of purchase. This demonstrates the confidence I have in
these Volvos.
A couple of years ago or so I bought on eBay two new ( old stock ) rear
shocks for £10 and kept them in my garage - used them for the MOT this year.
I don't know what they would have cost from the Volvo dealer ( frightening )
but even other internet sources expect about £40 each.
I recently bought two new ( old stock ) rear brake disks on eBay ( I believe
you call them rotors ) for £5 and they sit in my garage awaiting the time
when I will need them.
I have a spare used and complete CI fuel injection system in my garage (
used in the UK - though not the US - in 1988 on 240GL's ) that I bought on
eBay UK for £2 ( yes two ) pounds.

If, as you say, this has been your favourite car AND it is structurally
sound then start to investigate other alternatives than replacement.
An invaluable source of information I can recommend is the Volvo forums in
the UK at http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=11

I seem to remember there are some USA references on there too if you search.

I know people from work who spend occasional amounts of £200 - £300 or more
pounds ( not consumables, not servicing ) and not infrequently to maintain
their more modern post 2000 cars.

Good luck and think carefully before you dispose of that magnificent piece
of
engineering you have.

Colin

Ani Spam
The address used in this post is invalid - reply to group only to contact
me.

 

Blocked flame trap is common even when one is diligent with oil changes.
The flame trap has to be cleaned periodically and is often overlooked,
most people don't know it's there.

 

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Blocked flame trap is common even when one is diligent with oil changes.
The flame trap has to be cleaned periodically and is often overlooked,
most people don't know it's there.[/QUOTE]

And I have removed and checked the flame trap several times, it has
never been clogged yet (but it's been about a year, so who knows). I
think that if there is blockage on my 240 it is likely to be below this.

 

And I have removed and checked the flame trap several times, it has
never been clogged yet (but it's been about a year, so who knows). I
think that if there is blockage on my 240 it is likely to be below this.[/QUOTE]


The oil separator mounted to the block below the flame trap can clog,
it's much less common than the flame trap though.

 

Please remember that in the USA, there are areas where in the winter time,
a fair amount of salt is dumped on the road to deal with ice and snow.
This generally leads to very short life span for autos that have been used
in those places.

I'm trying to decide if it is worthwhile for me to repaint the 240 that I
have, or to just slowly let it rust. It will probably never be a long
lasting machine, since it was used in a road salt area before I bought
it. However, a new coat of paint may give it a few more years.

The original poster mentioned a repair shop in a particular area that uses
road salt, and in many cases autos over 20 years old are hard to maintain
with the damage the metal parts take from the added materials.

 

According to one internet source 240s were mostly Galvanised from 1987,
but may have been limited to wet/cold climates.

If you do not have a galvanised one then I would generally agree that a
rusting car is far too much effort to maintain except for the most
devoted fan.

I living a wet climate in a sea front town, that gets plenty of ice and
salt on the roads during the winter. My Galvanised 1995 940 has no
problems even on a few areas of chipped or scrapped bodywork down to the
metal. The biggest problem is the sub roof sealing lip which is not
galvanised (annoyingly) and water makes it way around the inside of the
seal and drops into the slider channel which then drips into the car.

 

So I am still pondering this, have not yet sold my 240 nor bought a
replacement (the likely candidates are so far surprisingly limited-
there's seemingly one 960 for sale in the area, no S90's at all, quite a
few 850's, and lots of S70/V70s).

I have a three page list, as previously recited, of things wrong with
the car- but I don't yet know what's wrong with the engine. I've had it
to two mechanics, neither of whom wanted to open it up and look. One
pulled and the belts and isolated it to something inside the engine and
charged me $50 for his time; the other- a Volvo specialist- did what
seemed to be about a two hour examination and charged me nothing for it
(and generated the three page memo).

But neither of them told me definitively what's wrong with the engine-
mainly "sounds like a cam follower." Looking in my books and on the
web, it seems like a cam follower would be pretty tough to break. So I
have decided that first I need to figure out what's wrong with the
engine- if it's a US$1000 then it's probably not worth doing that plus
the rest of the needed repairs. The car needs to belong to someone who
can do those repairs themselves and save the labor costs. But if it's a
$300 repair, then it's well worth doing and the other things can be
prioritized over time.

So, how can I diagnose this problem? The sound seems to occur once per
revolution. It comes from the top and seemingly the front half of the
engine. It's a metallic clanking sound, sort of like the sound of a
poker chip hitting a table. It's not audible at idle but is noticeable
on accelerating the engine or under load. If it's a valve clearance
adjustment shim or a cam follower, it that something that would be
likely visible to inspection if I pull the valve cover? Is there a
known problem in the B230 that tends to make this noise? Looking in the
manuals I have, it looks like pulling the valve cover ought to be well
within my mechanical skills, and I can install a new gasket to put it
back on afterwards. The question I would have is how to evaluate what I
am seeing once the valve cover is off and what I should be looking for
(if anyone knows).

 

Firstly I think any problems with the cam or valves would be noticeable
at idle, but I'm not super experienced with problems like that. Perhaps
a broken valve spring might no show up at low revs. Could it be
pinking? Would be surprised if experienced mechanics do not think or
suggest that, if its very regular and constant then perhaps not.

If it only showing up under load then it not valve related, they operate
mechanically on a timed basis and load has mostly no affect on them. Do
you hear it when you rev the engine at standstill? If so then possibly
a valve spring is broken.

It should not be too hard to pull the valve cover off, and I am
surprised that none of the mechanics did this, its a 5 min job, even
taking the cam out is not that big a job say 30 mins for an expert.
Guess they probably didn't have a gasket, but considering the state of
the car, I wouldn't be worried about using the old gasket temporarily.
Just try to get the broken bits back in the same place, or try to take
it off without breaking it (it will be brittle). Its not that critical,
you might get a little oil leaking from it, but the crank case vacuum
will prevent horrendous leaks.

First check all the cam bearing/brackets are intact, all the bolts on
top are firm and tight. A broken bolt could cause this.

You will see the cam shaft which bears down on tappet buckets, that
slide up and down in little cylinders with the adjustment shims sitting
on top and pushed directly by the cam. The tops of the buckets will be
50% bathed on oil in a closed resevoir, you can scoop some of this out
to improve visibility. Taking out the spark plugs might also make
things easier as you are not doing any compression other than the valve
springs.

Once you have the cover off, try to rotate the engine by hand. There
are 2 ways to do this.
1. In gear and nudge the car (manual gearbox), highest gear is easiest
2. Put a socket on the crank drive pulley (22 or 24mm from memory) and
turn the engine with a ratchet wrench.

The cam shaft will rotate at half engine speed.
When each lobe is pointing up (say beyond horizontal) the tappet bucket
should be fully raised and all at the same height, try to press each
one, it should give under quite firm pressure. If your are not strong
enough, then try to find a lever or pusher to push it down with, but do
not damage any sealing or bearing surface. The head is soft aluminium,
and the followers and cam are steel.
You are looking for smooth movement of the buckets, and the same tension
for all the valves (I think the exhausts and inlets use the same valve
springs). Check the clearances between the shims and cam with a feeler
gauge.

Having said that my money is on 'somewhere else', possibly crank or
intermediate shaft, even piston rings but very hard to say really. It
should not be a big undertaking for the Volvo expert to check the
cam/valves, again $50 should cover it. If he has the cam off spinning
the crank might show major problems there.

 

Yes, the sound is not noticeable at idle but if the engine is revved
while the car is parked, the noise is instantly there.

I'd buy a new gasket first just in case, they are cheap enough.

Good to know.

That could be a challenge, one spark plug has refused to cooperate with
removal...

Well, the noise *seems* to be at the top of the engine not at the
bottom. But that doesn't necessarily mean a lot, given that the engine
is largely hollow and sits inside an echo chamber.

Thanks for the advice, Tony.

 

Given that it is consistent with revs I would revise my favoured theory
to a broken valve spring. Not sure how this would show up, maybe
increased valve clearance or a loose valve, but that would create
compression problems on 1 stoke.

Other things come to mind, worn valve guide. Slipped timing belt. my
360/B200K slipped so badly it would not start, and a valve was 'gently'
tapping a piston, started ok with no bent vales after fixing the timing.

How does the engine run, smooth tickover, lacking power, oil buring?

 

Other than the tapping or clacking noise, it runs like a top. Good power, no
missing or hesitation, mileage is normal at 24 mpg in mixed city driving. It
seems to lose about 1/2 quart of oil in 3000 miles, not sure if that's from
burning oil (no visible smoke) or from the various leaks from the valve cover
gasket and near the water pump (front seal?). It's got better acceleration than
my wife's 1993 245

 

I apologize for the awful formatting, I was trying out a different newsreader. Sheesh.

 

You can't possibly dump as much salt as in the UK, they seem to start
spreading with the first sign of rain in September and don't stop until
April at the earliest.

 

If you where very clever you might be able to work out if its cam or
crank related by finding the frequency.

If it happens at 2000rpm, then you should expect 30 per second if it
crank related, or 15 per second if its cam related. You could try
recording it and analysing on a PC or making a your own controlled crank
frequency tapping, say by taping something to the crank pulley, and
comparing.

Other than that I think we've exhausted theory, need some hands on.

 

We have a guy here in town that is not only a volvo specialist, but a
specialist in the older volvos. It sounds to me like you need someone
like that, if they can be found in your area.