s60 vs. BMW?

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Paul_B

I've got an '01 s60 2.4 that I'm very happy with. If things go
well, I'm considering a new car.

I'm told the BMW 3 series is the cat's meow in this price range.
But from what I've seen, I like the Volvo's styling and safety
features better. BMW might have a better interior.

Any thoughts, experience, on this? I might be going the s60 "R"
route, in which case the BMW M series might be the better
comparison. At the least, I would want to go with AWD, and
standard transmission.

Also, does anyone know if major body changes are due for the s60
in '07? I see the convertible is coming out next year, which
could be a possibility.

Paul
 
BMW is rear wheel drive, which is more fun. Volvos are front-biased and
front-heavy due to the engine/tranny design (transverse front). I'd go
for the BMW. Actually, I'd go for an 05 BMW, since the 06 3-series has
expensive run-flats and no spare (although that can be remedied).

-Andrew
 
Paul_B said:
I've got an '01 s60 2.4 that I'm very happy with. If things go
well, I'm considering a new car.

I'm told the BMW 3 series is the cat's meow in this price range.
But from what I've seen, I like the Volvo's styling and safety
features better. BMW might have a better interior.

Any thoughts, experience, on this? I might be going the s60 "R"
route, in which case the BMW M series might be the better
comparison. At the least, I would want to go with AWD, and
standard transmission.

Also, does anyone know if major body changes are due for the s60
in '07? I see the convertible is coming out next year, which
could be a possibility.

Paul
Click to expand...

If your primary concern is the quality of the driving experience, get
the BMW. They handle so much better than an S60 as to make a a no
comparison situation.

If a combindation of comfort, luxury, quality and resale value really
floats your boat, then check out an Acura TL before you put your hard
earned money on the line.

Another interesting choice would be the '06 VW Passat which you can get
in front or all wheel drive. VW has had some reliability problems in
recent years, but so has Volvo.

IMO the S60 is not a competitive vehicle in it's class today.

John
 
Paul_B said:
I've got an '01 s60 2.4 that I'm very happy with. If things go
well, I'm considering a new car.
Click to expand...

Why if the '01 is still ok? The 97 850 my wife drives has 145K, my 94 940
turbo S/W just flipped over to 180,000.
I'm told the BMW 3 series is the cat's meow in this price range.
But from what I've seen, I like the Volvo's styling and safety
features better. BMW might have a better interior.
Click to expand...

The BMW drives much much better, but the Volvo is a bit more comfortable.
The 2006 BMW has run flat tires and am a late adopter--YMMV :)

The BMW will retain loads of value the Volvo will have it's value drop like
a brick.

The BMW is quite simply the finest sports sedan in the world today as it has
been since the 1960's when they invented the category.

The Volvo is kind of in a class of it's own, but the hell if I would pay 40
large for one.

Since you mention 4WD you obviously are quite willing to compromise quite a
bit for reality.

If I might be so bold may I make a few suggestions:

Saab 9-5 GM can't sell em, so they are still discounted quite heavily,
but they are like Volvo their own class to a degree, and will lose value
fast.

Subaru Legacy GT AWD, loads of fun, but not a luxury class vehicle

Acura TSX Loads of fun, very very nice, not too expensive, very reliable.
FWD, no AWD available.

Acura TL Near luxury with loads of features for the money. A great car.

Ford Explorer They just redesigned them, and for some reason they just
can't sell em. If you can accept the many sacrifices it will require it's a
good value. I would not buy one in a million years, but they are almost
giving them away!

Used Caddy Yeah what are you crazy? Well, no they are world class
quality and do not hold their value--a lot of luxo barge for the money. A
place in NJ right across the river from Philly has tons of 1-4 year old
caddies for tres low bucks--Kerbeck on rt 73 Palmyra, NJ.

Chevy Impala/Malibu Both are quite a lot of car for the money, and they
are built quite well, they also drive well. Take a test drive some time--no
cachet but low low price.

Chrysler 300 RWD, awd available. Love it or hate it, it's the last E
class Mercedes Benz for less then 30 decently equipped with the 6, $2-5k
more with the hemi.

Used 5 series BMW. I hate hate hate I drive--I drove a few bimmers with
it and I do not like it. The last 5 series I think 2004? It is the panicle
of automotive engineering to date--the 530 is sporty powerful safe and not
too bad on gas. BMW certified used is a good program.

and the ultimate cop out car Lexus es330 The ultimate Camry, and quite
a very very very nice car it is. No fun whatsoever to drive.

The list would not be complete without the Infiniti 35--powerful, RWD but no
330I, a lot less money, and AWD is available and they are not $elling well.
There is a front wheel drive version for a little less called the Nissan
Maxima BTW...
 
A great list of alternatives Paul. The S60 simply does not cut it
against the current crop of competing vehicles, which probably has a lot
to do with it's poor sales of late and crummy resale value.

Volvo made a big mistake when they replaced the 850/S70 with a smaller
interior vehicle. I was shopping a few years ago to replace my '96 850
and found the rear seat legroom of the S60 to be completely unacceptable
for full sized adults on a long drive. The S60 styling also gave up a
great deal of interior functionality in order to do the heavy curved
roof line and sculptured sides look. Appearance over capability is not
what the Volvo brand used to mean at all. Remember "form follows
function". Volvo has intentionally forgotten that mantra.

John
 
John Horner said:
Paul_B wrote:
Another interesting choice would be the '06 VW Passat which you can get
in front or all wheel drive. VW has had some reliability problems in
recent years, but so has Volvo.
Click to expand...

05 Passat has better weight distribution and AWD system (Torsen that
drives all 4 wheels all the time vs Haldex on the new Passat). Plus the
new Passat is only available with AWD if you get the VR6 and slushbox (but
that'll likely change since this is the 1st year or a new model). No
diesel yet either, and when it comes, the DSG is only going on the diesel,
gas models are stuck with either a slusheematic or a regular manual.

-Andrew
 
Steve said:
The 2006 BMW has run flat tires and am a late adopter--YMMV :)
Click to expand...

That can be corrected. Just get an extra wheel and tire to use as a
fullsized spare. And carry a light hydraulic jack, handle, and sockets.
The BMW is quite simply the finest sports sedan in the world today as it has
been since the 1960's when they invented the category.
Click to expand...

IMHO, the BMWs have gotten worse since the last generation. No spare on
even the base 3-series? Ugh. No temperature or oil pressure gauges.
Ughx3. (Though both of those problems can be fixed by the aftermarket for
$300 or so)
Subaru Legacy GT AWD, loads of fun, but not a luxury class vehicle
Click to expand...

GT wagon seems not to be available with manual in 06. Outback XT is
though. I think they're about to discontinue the Legacy GTs since sales
are slow so they're cutting back on versions.
Ford Explorer They just redesigned them, and for some reason they just
can't sell em.
Click to expand...

I wonder why? Could it be that gas is expensive and the trucks have lost
their "truck" aspect? 4-wheel independent suspension in what started out
in a work truck. *Sigh* (Yes, the Hummer also has 4WIS, but it has
portal hubs to raise the CV axles high above the road).
Used Caddy Yeah what are you crazy? Well, no they are world class
quality and do not hold their value--a lot of luxo barge for the money. A
Click to expand...

Um, the CTS is *not* a luxo-barge in any conventional sense of the term.
Heck, you can even get it in stick (stick is mandatory on the CTS-V,
IIRC). Caddy has changed a lot over the last 10 years!
Chevy Impala/Malibu Both are quite a lot of car for the money, and they
are built quite well, they also drive well. Take a test drive some time--no
Click to expand...

Front wheel driven garbage. GM did a bad thing when they discontinued the
old Caprice/Impala. We can only hope to see more Holden-based RWD
vehicles in the US in 2007 or 8. Supposedly, the "Zeta" program is back
on track.
Chrysler 300 RWD, awd available. Love it or hate it, it's the last E
class Mercedes Benz for less then 30 decently equipped with the 6, $2-5k
Click to expand...

I'd go for the Magnum or Charger instead. Charger is better looking,
Magnum has practicality going for it.
Used 5 series BMW. I hate hate hate I drive--I drove a few bimmers with
it and I do not like it. The last 5 series I think 2004? It is the panicle
Click to expand...

Thank you. So I'm not the only one who thinks BMW is on an unnecessary
techno-wank?

Cheers,
Andrew
 
I've got an '01 s60 2.4 that I'm very happy with. If things go
well, I'm considering a new car.

I'm told the BMW 3 series is the cat's meow in this price range.
But from what I've seen, I like the Volvo's styling and safety
features better. BMW might have a better interior.

Any thoughts, experience, on this? I might be going the s60 "R"
route, in which case the BMW M series might be the better
comparison. At the least, I would want to go with AWD, and
standard transmission.

Also, does anyone know if major body changes are due for the s60
in '07? I see the convertible is coming out next year, which
could be a possibility.

Paul
Click to expand...


Thanks everyone for all the great replies thus far. Seems like
the R owners like their vehicles, as evidenced over at Swedespeed
forums and some review sites like yahoo auto and epinions. I'm
partial to the s60's interior comfort and exterior looks, and the
safety angle. The BMW's looks don't do much for me at all, nor
does the price. I'd hate to pay a conformity premium.

As I said, I'm happy with my s60, but I'd like more power, a
stick, and Volvo's intelligent 4wd (though I really wish it
favored the rear wheels; I also hate the car's obscenely wide
turning radius). I also abhor BMW's I-drive. I guess the only
thing is to test drive the two units, and pray on it, if I can
find an R sitting on a lot.

Anyway, thanks for the replies, from which I'm learning. Keep
them coming and I'll keep reading.

Paul
 
Paul_B said:
As I said, I'm happy with my s60, but I'd like more power, a
stick, and Volvo's intelligent 4wd (though I really wish it
favored the rear wheels; I also hate the car's obscenely wide
turning radius). I also abhor BMW's I-drive. I guess the only
thing is to test drive the two units, and pray on it, if I can
find an R sitting on a lot.

Anyway, thanks for the replies, from which I'm learning. Keep
them coming and I'll keep reading.
Click to expand...

There are many good choices on the market from a lot of companies.
Don't limit your test driving to just Volvo and BMW.

John
 
yep...it took my wife and i seconds to
sit in the back of the s60...then move to
the rear seat in the s80....loads of space
difference between the two...

i had a bmw 5 series before moving to volvos...
the s60 and 5 series don't really compaire (imho)
....i would put the bmw 5 series against the s80....
two very different sedans... it all depends on
your likes and driving style....both are nice sedans...

and, more important...your mechanic and/or dealer
service department...loaner cars, etc...
 
As I said, I'm happy with my s60, but I'd like more power, a
stick, and Volvo's intelligent 4wd (though I really wish it
favored the rear wheels; I also hate the car's obscenely wide
turning radius).
Click to expand...

Kind of ironic since the RWD Volvos were famous for their tight turning
radii. Never ceases to amaze me how easily I can manipulate my big 740
in a tight parking garage.
 
James Sweet said:
Kind of ironic since the RWD Volvos were famous for their tight turning
radii. Never ceases to amaze me how easily I can manipulate my big 740
in a tight parking garage.
Click to expand...

The 850 wasn't much worse if at all. Ford has thrown function out the
window in favor of style after acquiring Volvo, unfortunately

-Andrew
 
James said:
Kind of ironic since the RWD Volvos were famous for their tight turning
radii. Never ceases to amaze me how easily I can manipulate my big 740
in a tight parking garage.
Click to expand...

One of the things Volvo did with the 850 design was to produce one of
the tightest turning radius FWD vehicles of it's size ever made. This
was part of the reason I bought my first 850 back in '94. Volvo
literature of the time made a big deal of the special CV joints, etc.
which were used to accomplish this.

Somehow with the S60 the engineering direction changed in many ways.

Clearly the old Volvo design/engineering ethic which put a priority on
functionality is now sadly gone.

Why is it that every company is chasing the young/hip/stylish consumer
while at the same time the income and wealth of the developed world
keeps skewing ever upwards in age?

John
 
The 850 wasn't much worse if at all. Ford has thrown function out the
window in favor of style after acquiring Volvo, unfortunately
Click to expand...
I find my 850 has an annoyingly large turning radius.

Rick
 
John said:
One of the things Volvo did with the 850 design was to produce one of
the tightest turning radius FWD vehicles of it's size ever made. This
was part of the reason I bought my first 850 back in '94. Volvo
literature of the time made a big deal of the special CV joints, etc.
which were used to accomplish this.

Somehow with the S60 the engineering direction changed in many ways.

Clearly the old Volvo design/engineering ethic which put a priority on
functionality is now sadly gone.

Why is it that every company is chasing the young/hip/stylish consumer
while at the same time the income and wealth of the developed world
keeps skewing ever upwards in age?

John
Click to expand...


Probably because the young/hip market is huge. They may not be wealthy
but they can buy it on credit. Not the way I want to live but credit
seems to be the American way.

I've not yet had a chance to drive an 850, I didn't realize they were so
much better in that respect. I wonder if there's anything beyond cost
savings that resulted in the newer cars having such a wide turning radius.
 
That can be corrected. Just get an extra wheel and tire to use as a
fullsized spare. And carry a light hydraulic jack, handle, and sockets.


IMHO, the BMWs have gotten worse since the last generation. No spare on
even the base 3-series? Ugh. No temperature or oil pressure gauges.
Ughx3. (Though both of those problems can be fixed by the aftermarket for
$300 or so)
Click to expand...

This is a discussion not a flame, so don't take this like a flame pls.

What other sports sedan is better then a 330?
GT wagon seems not to be available with manual in 06. Outback XT is
though. I think they're about to discontinue the Legacy GTs since sales
are slow so they're cutting back on versions.
Click to expand...

Perhaps, perhaps not, in any case the GT is a real winner, albeit not a
luxo-car.
I wonder why? Could it be that gas is expensive and the trucks have lost
their "truck" aspect? 4-wheel independent suspension in what started out
in a work truck. *Sigh* (Yes, the Hummer also has 4WIS, but it has
portal hubs to raise the CV axles high above the road).
Click to expand...


Exactly why its a potential replacement--the 4 wheel independant suspension
and the low price of entry....

A

Um, the CTS is *not* a luxo-barge in any conventional sense of the term.
Heck, you can even get it in stick (stick is mandatory on the CTS-V,
IIRC). Caddy has changed a lot over the last 10 years!
Click to expand...

The Deville is a luxo barge, albeit one I find looking better and better as
the big 50 gets bigger and bigger in the windshield.
time--no

Front wheel driven garbage. GM did a bad thing when they discontinued the
old Caprice/Impala. We can only hope to see more Holden-based RWD
vehicles in the US in 2007 or 8. Supposedly, the "Zeta" program is back
on track.
Click to expand...

I disagree. Well built good driving unexciting transportation with much
more nice stuff then you ever thought a chev would ever have.
I'd go for the Magnum or Charger instead. Charger is better looking,
Magnum has practicality going for it.
Click to expand...

Matter of opinion, the charger is way too in your face for me, the 300 is
already rather more ...assertive then I would like, but it's a good car, and
I think a very good alternative to the s60.
panicle

Thank you. So I'm not the only one who thinks BMW is on an unnecessary
techno-wank?
Click to expand...
I drove a 2006 530i on the interstae.
55
65
75
85
95
105
115
125 (all MPH)
The stuff went by faster, but no more wind noise, no weird vibrations, no
steering getting all light.
I would not buy one, but you must give BMW their due, it truly is a
wonderful vehicle.
 
Paul_B said:
Thanks everyone for all the great replies thus far. Seems like
the R owners like their vehicles, as evidenced over at Swedespeed
forums and some review sites like yahoo auto and epinions. I'm
partial to the s60's interior comfort and exterior looks, and the
safety angle. The BMW's looks don't do much for me at all, nor
does the price. I'd hate to pay a conformity premium.

As I said, I'm happy with my s60, but I'd like more power, a
stick, and Volvo's intelligent 4wd (though I really wish it
favored the rear wheels; I also hate the car's obscenely wide
turning radius). I also abhor BMW's I-drive. I guess the only
thing is to test drive the two units, and pray on it, if I can
find an R sitting on a lot.

Anyway, thanks for the replies, from which I'm learning. Keep
them coming and I'll keep reading.

Paul
Click to expand...

Stick, AWD, Power.

Subary Legacy GT. At least give it a look.
Audi A4 v6 Quatro. You should give it a test drive.
Audi $4 Quatro
For me the I drive is a killer, but a AWD BMW 3 or 5 series XI

What about a s40T5 AWD? I think that might be your answer, almost as much
room as the s60, and very nice!
 
James Sweet said:
Kind of ironic since the RWD Volvos were famous for their tight turning
radii. Never ceases to amaze me how easily I can manipulate my big 740
in a tight parking garage.
Click to expand...

Oh YES!
going from my 940 to my wife's 850 is quite a difference!
 
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