Tailight colours - regarding amber vs red turn signals, european cars.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Rob Guenther
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Rob Guenther

Hi...

Was just wondering something. For the longest while, all European cars that
I know of have had low wattage red running lights, higher wattage red brake
lights that came on overtop of the running lights, or in a separate part of
the cluster, a spot for a foglight or two *unless North American special
spec, clear reverse... but here is where they would differenciate from North
America - always a separate clear or amber coloured cluster, and an amber or
yellow bulb for turn signals....

BUT NOW.... I am seeing red turn signals and almost American style
combination running/stopping/turning signal clusters, almost American car
style... Did Europe never have a law saying you HAVE to have amber turn
signals - and the manufacturers are just now making red signals... or are we
getting North American style lights here only... Look at the Jetta wagon,
Porsche 911's I have seen with red lights, new Jetta, some newer Audi's.

Peronsally I think amber signal lights are far more readily visible in all
weather/conditions, I like plain, straightforward segmented lighting like
you see on something like a Golf, or a Volvo.
 
Rob Guenther said:
BUT NOW.... I am seeing red turn signals and almost American style
combination running/stopping/turning signal clusters, almost American car
style...
Yuck!

Did Europe never have a law saying you HAVE to have amber turn
signals - and the manufacturers are just now making red signals... or are we
getting North American style lights here only... Look at the Jetta wagon,
Porsche 911's I have seen with red lights, new Jetta, some newer Audi's.
Click to expand...

They are north american specific. In the real world outside the insulated
FMVSS lunacy, red rear indicators have been banned for many decades.

Similarly, front parking lights in the rest of the world are white not
yellow, and the light patterns of headlights are far more effective.
 
So you're telling me, that on the new Jetta (where this actually stemmed
from after looking at one at the dealer... as we own 2 VW's as well as a
Volvo) where 1/2 of the outside round lamp is a red indicator lamp, that in
Europe it will have to be amber?.... Guess if I end up buying one, i'd buy
some European lights for it (I think red's look ugly for one, and are not as
effective, for two).... This swings my what new car to get descision more to
the Volvo S40, which I can get for just a bit more then a new Jetta (Ford
X-plan, thru Magna Int') - I like the S40 in general better - but I'm
worried about the stigma as a luxury brand affecting my insurance premiums
(since I'll be 22 or so if I get the car sometime in the next 18 months)...
I like the Jetta interior better (tho the Volvo one is probably technically
better: better seats, nicer radio, cleaner design).
 
Out of interest Rob, the red turn signals come from the earlier American
cars which had huge light displays at the rear. One side would flash for a
turn and both sides would come on when braking. Thus all rear facing lamps
were red.

Cheers, Peter.
 
Oh I know where they come from, I see them every day on the thousands of
American cars I see driving around.... Which is why I am disapointed to see
some Euro cars going this route.

Was wondering if Europe didn't actually have laws for signal colours, or if
they make different tail lamps for over here (I would have to wonder why
waste the money).
 
Rob Guenther said:
Was wondering if Europe didn't actually have laws for signal colours, or if
they make different tail lamps for over here (I would have to wonder why
waste the money).
Click to expand...

Marketing.
 
We do have laws for signalcolours
Click to expand...

Yes, but the decision by EU manufacturers to make US-market red indicators
when their rest-of-the-world amber ones are acceptable in the US market is
purely about marketing.
 
"We made our vehicle less safe and less distinctively European?"

At least I know I could buy a Euro-spec part....
 
:-) Sweet - will have to call my company when I get more serious about a new
car, but that is a good thing to hear.
 
Marc Sebens said:
The Volvo will actually cost less to insure than the Jetta
Click to expand...

That is because of the drivers. The marketing of Volvos appeals to
safety minded people who want a safe car they think is hot. Jetta
marketing is to people who think a car is going to make them into race
car drivers. Unfortunately some Volvo marketing has been in extremely
poor taste also.
 
athol said:
Yes, but the decision by EU manufacturers to make US-market red indicators
when their rest-of-the-world amber ones are acceptable in the US market is
purely about marketing.

--
Click to expand...
The advent of amber turn signals in the US was about the time I learned to
drive. It amazed me (and still does now) that the turn signals weren't left
red and the brake lights changed to amber. I'd rather have a stronger
indication that the car ahead was braking than that it was preparing to
turn.

The history of light colors is strange anyway. I assume the red taillights
were a natural outgrowth of red lanterns on cabooses of trains. A book I
read about WWI ("No Man's Land") explained the yellow headlights in France
were to distinguish French cars from German cars, starting around the seige
of Verdun.

Mike
 
Both cars seem directed at the same age group (young, just married or
married in a couple years, getting their life going etc) - Yah there is more
of a tuner base with Jetta's, probably because the old S40 was so boring,
and the stylish and cool S60 was too expensive - a lot of people my age say
"oh god, you actually want a Volvo" when I mention S40, then I show them a
picture of it and they start to say "wow that car is awesome... why even
look at the Jetta".

From the ads i've seen the Volvo seems to be targeted towards more sporty
drivers then the new Jetta - the GLI is the sporty Jetta.

I definately want a very safe car that I think is hot... :-)
 
Rob Guenther said:
Hi...

Was just wondering something. For the longest while, all European cars
that I know of have had low wattage red running lights, higher wattage red
brake lights that came on overtop of the running lights, or in a separate
part of the cluster, a spot for a foglight or two *unless North American
special spec, clear reverse... but here is where they would differenciate
from North America - always a separate clear or amber coloured cluster,
and an amber or yellow bulb for turn signals....

BUT NOW.... I am seeing red turn signals and almost American style
combination running/stopping/turning signal clusters, almost American car
style... Did Europe never have a law saying you HAVE to have amber turn
signals - and the manufacturers are just now making red signals... or are
we getting North American style lights here only... Look at the Jetta
wagon, Porsche 911's I have seen with red lights, new Jetta, some newer
Audi's.

Peronsally I think amber signal lights are far more readily visible in all
weather/conditions, I like plain, straightforward segmented lighting like
you see on something like a Golf, or a Volvo.
Click to expand...

For the 10% of men who are colour-blind it is a revelation that these lights
have different colours.
 
Geoff Pearson said:
For the 10% of men who are colour-blind it is a revelation that these
lights have different colours.
Click to expand...
Color blindness normally comes in two forms: red-green (common) and
blue-yellow (much less common). I knew a man who had both forms and it was
obvious when his wife hadn't laid out his clothes for him!

Total color-blindness (called "maksun") is rare and debilitating, but
historically was common among miners who worked all day in very dim light
until the cones in their retinas atrophied. They had to wear very dark
glasses in sunlight to prevent the rod receptors from saturating. (Learned
that on a trip to a closed mine in BC a couple years back.)

More than you maybe wanted to know!

Mike
 
. I'd rather have a stronger
indication that the car ahead was braking than that it was preparing to
turn.
Click to expand...

That's why you use red for braking. It's psychologically better (even
reaction times are slightly faster for red lights) and they are more
visible through fog. More importantly amber lights are all too easily
confused with sodium streetlights.
about WWI ("No Man's Land") explained the yellow headlights in France
were to distinguish French cars from German cars, starting around the seige
of Verdun.
Click to expand...

This is false. Most headlighting in those days was acetylene burners
which are white and would be hard to filter as a yellow. Electric
lights were a dim yellow and barely classifiable as white.

The French justification for yellow headlights was related to the
yellow glasses used to improve contrast in low lighting conditions.
There's a small margin around dusk or in fog when they might make an
improvement, but in a pitch black night you just want white ones.

Any European vehicle lighting is of course vastly superior to any
American vehicle lighting. I've no idea why, but US cars still use
lighting techniques we used in the '60s.
 
Andy Dingley said:
That's why you use red for braking. It's psychologically better (even
reaction times are slightly faster for red lights) and they are more
visible through fog. More importantly amber lights are all too easily
confused with sodium streetlights.
Click to expand...
Red also doesn't diminish in intensity with distance as much as other
colors. One reason US police cars now have both blue and red flashing
lights is that blue provides distance information and the red gives the
warning. Evidently there were a lot of instances where drivers would plow
into stopped police cars because it was difficult to judge how far away they
were, especially at night. To be pedantic about it, it's a
psychophysiological phenomonon.
 
Andy Dingley said:
That's why you use red for braking. It's psychologically better (even
reaction times are slightly faster for red lights) and they are more
visible through fog. More importantly amber lights are all too easily
confused with sodium streetlights.
Click to expand...

I was thinking about Michael's comment about yellow being a stronger
indicator. I was looking at lights while I was driving and found that
yellow is almost as strong as white. However, it is as almost as
unnoticeable as white also. It is a very common color. Hence, the
"weak" color of red is much more noticeable. Michael's use of strong
means that the yellow filter doesn't filter out as many lumens as a red
filter. However, the "weak" red light is much more noticeable. In
practice, the red brake lights have a higher wattage lamp, so that the
filter factor is compensated for. So I would say that the countries and
companies that adopted red as a signal for important things like
stopping and emergency vehicles made a good choice.
 
Any European vehicle lighting is of course vastly superior to any
American vehicle lighting. I've no idea why, but US cars still use
lighting techniques we used in the '60s.
Click to expand...


It really comes down to bureaucratic red tape and other BS though it's not
nearly so true anymore as it used to be. Quite a lot of newer cars have
headlights that meet both DOT and ECE regulations with a beam pattern very
close to the old style E-code lamps.
 
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