Well, the old gal finally let me down...

[clay]

She refused to start last night.
In all fairness, she gave me plenty of warning... Wouldn't catch second
click, start then stall, etc. for the last day or so, but I ignored it.
Just to teach me a lesson, she took me 40 miles away at ~midnight and (I
think?) the fuel pump gave up. 160.00 worth of towing and she's out
front, waiting for the weekend until I can crawl into her innards.

I don't think it's spark because the few times in the past when the fire
went out, I could smell gas when I cranked it. Usually, spinning the
fuses in the fusebox would make it lite. No gas smell this time. Will
check it just to be sure though.

When I got in it to go last night, I hit the starter once as usual, hit
it again and it caught, then sputtered and died.
Subsequent attempts resulted in sputtering but no catching.
Finally, not even a sputter...
Checked and wiggled the fuses, then called the hook. No sense in
grinding down the battery when I know it isn't gonna go.

8 years of 100% reliability so who's complaining? (well, there was that
one time the headlight switch fell apart causing me to have to drive
home on the high beam switch...)

I know it's been covered here before (but I didn't take very good notes)
so after I change out the fuel filter (6 years old) and checking spark,
what to look at next before I drop the tank?

'83 245. ~250K

 

[zencraps]

I know it's been covered here before (but I didn't take very good notes)
so after I change out the fuel filter (6 years old) and checking spark,
what to look at next before I drop the tank?

'83 245. ~250K

Why drop the tank?

Here's what I would due to rule out ignition: hook up a timing light
and have someone crank it; if the light flashes rhythmically, you've
got spark, so that means it's a fuel problem.

Replace the filter, like you said you'd do: it's time.

If the car still won't start, I would suspect that the fuel pump relay
is bad, or that the main pump is shot.

Get another relay (good to keep around, just in case), swap it out and
see if the problem goes away.

If it persists, suspect the pump: you can order a new one from FCP
Groton, online, or IPD.

For more detailed DIY info, do a search on turbobricks.com.

 

[clay]

Why drop the tank?

....anticipating a bad in tank pump.

Here's what I would due to rule out ignition: hook up a timing light
and have someone crank it; if the light flashes rhythmically, you've
got spark, so that means it's a fuel problem.

That works. I'll probably have a look at the plugs anyway...

Replace the filter, like you said you'd do: it's time.

If the car still won't start, I would suspect that the fuel pump relay
is bad, or that the main pump is shot.

This is the tip I was looking for! (told you I don't take good notes)

...
If it persists, suspect the pump: you can order a new one from FCP
Groton, online, or IPD.

as in main pump or in-tank pump?

For more detailed DIY info, do a search on turbobricks.com.

A little known tip for searching forums like forums.turbobricks.com
The website's search engine isn't all that special. Doesn't accept
boolean searches, etc.
Use Google.
In the Google search window, type:
site:forums.turbobricks.com
Then you can use modifiers to refine your search and weed out some of
the hits that don't apply. For instance, I used:
site:forums.turbobricks.com +"fuel pump" +replacement +240 -740
So I only get articles with fuel pump and not just fuel or pump.
+240 ensures that 240 is in the articles.
-740 removes articles that refer to the 740.

 

[zencraps]

There is no need to "drop" the fuel tank on your Volvo.

The main fuel pump is not in the tank (the in-tank prepump is).

 

[James Sweet]

There is no need to "drop" the fuel tank on your Volvo.

The main fuel pump is not in the tank (the in-tank prepump is).

And the prepump is accessible from the topside...

I'd check the relay first, it's easy enough. I had a difficult to
diagnose fuel pump failure in my 240 a few years ago. I could hear the
pump running but I eventually discovered it wasn't pumping. An autopsy
after the fact found that the drive nubs on the motor had sheared off so
the impeller wasn't turning.

 

[Clay]

And the prepump is accessible from the topside...

I'd check the relay first, it's easy enough. I had a difficult to
diagnose fuel pump failure in my 240 a few years ago. I could hear the
pump running but I eventually discovered it wasn't pumping. An autopsy
after the fact found that the drive nubs on the motor had sheared off so
the impeller wasn't turning.

Glad to hear about the prepump. Hate to have to deal with a full tank of
gas to get to it.

Timing light says it has fire.

Having a heck of a time locating the relay.
Googling finds it's a green relay, white relay, black relay.
Passenger side, driver side, (it's a '83 245 LHD car)
There's not much under there anyway. Don't see anything that could be
confused for a relay on the driver side. Haven't pulled the center
console apart yet.
Passenger side has a metal cased relay mounted to the firewall and a
black plastic cased one flopping around. Here's the black one:
http://home.pacbell.net/clayt/relay019.jpg

Feels like both of them click when I turn the key.
Picking up a filter and (hopefully) a relay tomorrow.

I read lots on jumpering this and that to bypass fuses and stuff to try
to make the pumps work. Most of it too conflicting (in my mind) for me
to start poking around and maybe fry something...

I want my Volvo back..! Damn rental car is costing more than the
annual maintenance on her.

 

[Mike F]

Glad to hear about the prepump. Hate to have to deal with a full tank of
gas to get to it.

Timing light says it has fire.

Having a heck of a time locating the relay.
Googling finds it's a green relay, white relay, black relay.
Passenger side, driver side, (it's a '83 245 LHD car)
There's not much under there anyway. Don't see anything that could be
confused for a relay on the driver side. Haven't pulled the center
console apart yet.
Passenger side has a metal cased relay mounted to the firewall and a
black plastic cased one flopping around. Here's the black one:
http://home.pacbell.net/clayt/relay019.jpg

Feels like both of them click when I turn the key.
Picking up a filter and (hopefully) a relay tomorrow.

I read lots on jumpering this and that to bypass fuses and stuff to try
to make the pumps work. Most of it too conflicting (in my mind) for me
to start poking around and maybe fry something...

I want my Volvo back..! Damn rental car is costing more than the
annual maintenance on her.

Depends on the fuel system. The mechanical (k-jetronic) has a 6 pin
relay mounted near the hood release pull. The latest ones are all
green, but I've seen these orange, gray, black and aluminum. Electronic
injection has a pair of 5 pin relays on the firewall, inside the car
directly above the passenger's feet, one for fuel pump, the other the
main fuel injection relay. Note this dual relay setup was replaced with
a single white 6 pin relay for the '85 model year. This is why there's
so much confusion.

--
Mike F.
Thornhill (near Toronto), Ont.

Replace tt with t (twice!) and remove parentheses to email me directly.
(But I check the newsgroup more often than this email address.)

 

[clay]

...

Depends on the fuel system. The mechanical (k-jetronic) has a 6 pin
relay mounted near the hood release pull. The latest ones are all
green, but I've seen these orange, gray, black and aluminum. Electronic
injection has a pair of 5 pin relays on the firewall, inside the car
directly above the passenger's feet, one for fuel pump, the other the
main fuel injection relay. Note this dual relay setup was replaced with
a single white 6 pin relay for the '85 model year. This is why there's
so much confusion.

Apparently I have the 2 relays on the passenger side then.
They both click when I turn on the ignition.
I hear one of them click again, ~ 1 second after I turn on the ignition,
like it's opening again or something.
With all the covers off, there sure is a lot of clicking going on under
the dash when I turn the key.

I don't remember ever hearing the fuel pumps running when I turn on the
ignition. Girlfriendzilla's Jeep makes an awful buzz when you turn the
key. At least you know it's working...*g*
Do the Volvo pumps not run until the starter is engaged?

Next step I think, is putting power directly to the pumps to see if they
run.

 

[jch]

Apparently I have the 2 relays on the passenger side then.
They both click when I turn on the ignition.
I hear one of them click again, ~ 1 second after I turn on the ignition,
like it's opening again or something.
With all the covers off, there sure is a lot of clicking going on under
the dash when I turn the key.

Next step I think, is putting power directly to the pumps to see if they
run.

_____
Your car is a 1983 245? If yes, please confirm what fuel injection
system the car has (K-jet mechanical Bosch CIS system, or LH-jet
electronic injection).

Do the following:
1) Pull the cover in the cargo area over the top of the fuel tank.
You will see three conductors going to the in-tank pump and a connector.
Pull the connector apart and check the brown ground wire with an Ohm
meter. The gray wire goes from the fuel level sensor to the dashboard.
The other wire is probably red and comes from fuse #5 via the fuel
relay (typically a tachimetric relay which means that it remains
activated when it detects ignition pulses, but opens when the engine
stalls).
2) Check and clean fuse #5. When engine is cranked, the red wire
should get 12V power. If no, then the relay is bad. If yes, then check
the resistance of the in-tank pump at the connector. You can supply 12V
to the in-tank pump at the connector to see if it works.
3) Check for the presence of 12V at the main fuel pump (under the car
left side below passenger's feet) when engine is cranked. This will
require partial removal of a rubber boot over the pump connector. If
no, then the relay is bad. If yes, then check the resistance of the
main pump at the connector. You can supply 12V to the main pump at the
connector to see if it works

It is pretty obvious if the in-tank pump does not run. You should be
able to hear it. Same goes for the main pump. If the in-tank pump has
failed, then the main pump usually does _not_ get enough fuel to produce
the 70 to 80 psig needed by the injection system, and the car won't
start. Replacing the in-tank pump is a bit involved, but do-able. See
my web page at http://24.108.159.23/245dl_1981_restoration.html, 3.1
Fuel injection system.

/ jch

 

[clay]

_____
Your car is a 1983 245? If yes, please confirm what fuel injection
system the car has (K-jet mechanical Bosch CIS system, or LH-jet
electronic injection).

Do the following:
1) Pull the cover in the cargo area over the top of the fuel tank. You
will see three conductors going to the in-tank pump and a connector.
Pull the connector apart and check the brown ground wire with an Ohm
meter. The gray wire goes from the fuel level sensor to the dashboard.
The other wire is probably red and comes from fuse #5 via the fuel
relay (typically a tachimetric relay which means that it remains
activated when it detects ignition pulses, but opens when the engine
stalls).
2) Check and clean fuse #5. When engine is cranked, the red wire
should get 12V power. If no, then the relay is bad. If yes, then check
the resistance of the in-tank pump at the connector. You can supply 12V
to the in-tank pump at the connector to see if it works.
3) Check for the presence of 12V at the main fuel pump (under the car
left side below passenger's feet) when engine is cranked. This will
require partial removal of a rubber boot over the pump connector. If
no, then the relay is bad. If yes, then check the resistance of the
main pump at the connector. You can supply 12V to the main pump at the
connector to see if it works

It is pretty obvious if the in-tank pump does not run. You should be
able to hear it. Same goes for the main pump. If the in-tank pump has
failed, then the main pump usually does _not_ get enough fuel to produce
the 70 to 80 psig needed by the injection system, and the car won't
start. Replacing the in-tank pump is a bit involved, but do-able. See
my web page at http://24.108.159.23/245dl_1981_restoration.html, 3.1
Fuel injection system.

/ jch

Thanks for this! We'll be checking these things tonight.

 

[Clay]

...

Thanks for this! We'll be checking these things tonight.

It was the relay. Popped in a new one and it fired right up.
(now to order a spare to keep in the box...)

 

[Howard Nelson]

It was the relay. Popped in a new one and it fired right up.
(now to order a spare to keep in the box...)

Many times it is bad solder joints in the relay. If you are handy with a
soldering iron you can salvage the old one and save a few bucks.

Howard

 

[Clay]

Many times it is bad solder joints in the relay. If you are handy with a
soldering iron you can salvage the old one and save a few bucks.

Howard

I looked at the old one. The joints (and there are only 2...to the
windings that operate the coil) were ok.
The relay closed, it just wouldn't hold.

 

[Clay]

It was the main pump.
I put an aftermarket one on it until I can order a Bosch unit.