Alternator?

[tands]

Please go easy with me - I'm a complete novice!

1991/2 Volvo 940 2l turbo

I posted a few days ago about a load of lights flickering on and off on
my dashboard. A few people suggested there may be a problem with the
alternator. See
http://groups-beta.google.com/group...r=recent&&_doneTitle=Back&&d#4fb1412834fc9cf2

Anyway, this morning, my wife started the car, then stopped whilst
still on the drive having forgotten something. At the second attempt,
the car struggled to start (sounded like a very low amount of charge
going through to the starter motor) but managed. So not wanting to get
stranded somewhere, we stopped the car and at the third attempt, it
wouldn't start. I'm guessing the battery's dead - at least, it sounded
like that. I'll see if I've got the kit to check that later today.

Is it reasonable to assume that the alternator may have died? I know
very little about mechanical/electrical stuff, but I think I remember
hearing an explanation that the alternator serves to keep the eletrical
system charged amongst other things?

All help/advice/suggestions gratefully received.

Tim

 

[Maarten De Munck]

[email protected] schreef:

Please go easy with me - I'm a complete novice!

1991/2 Volvo 940 2l turbo

I posted a few days ago about a load of lights flickering on and off on
my dashboard. A few people suggested there may be a problem with the
alternator. See
http://groups-beta.google.com/group...r=recent&&_doneTitle=Back&&d#4fb1412834fc9cf2

Anyway, this morning, my wife started the car, then stopped whilst
still on the drive having forgotten something. At the second attempt,
the car struggled to start (sounded like a very low amount of charge
going through to the starter motor) but managed. So not wanting to get
stranded somewhere, we stopped the car and at the third attempt, it
wouldn't start. I'm guessing the battery's dead - at least, it sounded
like that. I'll see if I've got the kit to check that later today.

Is it reasonable to assume that the alternator may have died? I know
very little about mechanical/electrical stuff, but I think I remember
hearing an explanation that the alternator serves to keep the eletrical
system charged amongst other things?

You're right in that: the alternator charges the battery, so that you
always have a charged battery to start the car. So, correct charging of
the battery is dependant of the accumulator, but also of the battery and
the connection in between (voltage regulator and wires).

I don't know where you're living, but batteries 'lose' some capacity in
a cold environment. For a good battery, that's not a problem, for an old
one, it can be. It's quite easy to check with a volt-meter: the battery
itself should give about 12V (with the engine off), but it needs around
13.8V to charge properly. So if you start the engine (using cables to
antoher car I'm afraid) and rev it a bit, you should read around 13.8V
between the battery poles. If so, the battery is probably dead,
especially if the weather is cold and it's already some years (>5) old.
If not, your alternator needs a bit of attention.

Groetjes,

Maarten

 

[tands]

Maarten

Thank you so much for your reply. Even with my lack of technical
know-how I actually feel like I could go and check this out for myself
now.

I notice a bit of dutch round your posting. I'm in Budel, just south of
Eindhoven. You're right about the cold and I don't think all the
moisture in the air is helping either!

Groetjes

Tim

 

[Michael Pardee]

Please go easy with me - I'm a complete novice!

1991/2 Volvo 940 2l turbo

I posted a few days ago about a load of lights flickering on and off on
my dashboard. A few people suggested there may be a problem with the
alternator. See
http://groups-beta.google.com/group...r=recent&&_doneTitle=Back&&d#4fb1412834fc9cf2

Anyway, this morning, my wife started the car, then stopped whilst
still on the drive having forgotten something. At the second attempt,
the car struggled to start (sounded like a very low amount of charge
going through to the starter motor) but managed. So not wanting to get
stranded somewhere, we stopped the car and at the third attempt, it
wouldn't start. I'm guessing the battery's dead - at least, it sounded
like that. I'll see if I've got the kit to check that later today.

Is it reasonable to assume that the alternator may have died? I know
very little about mechanical/electrical stuff, but I think I remember
hearing an explanation that the alternator serves to keep the eletrical
system charged amongst other things?

All help/advice/suggestions gratefully received.

Tim

Assuming the alternator isn't working (still what I'm guessing) it is useful
to know that many Volvo alternators have a separate module in them that
includes the brushes and regulator. If yours is one of them, it is much more
economical to replace the module than to replace the whole alternator. The
module is usually called the "regulator" and is available from Bosch on the
ones I'm familiar with.

Mike

 

[Jack Swedberg]

You may also check that the battery , alternator, and all ground straps and
wires are clean and tight. Sometimes a connection gets corroded and/or
shakes loose.

Jack

 

[Pat Quadlander]

Group,

Tim mentioned a bunch of flickering lights a few days ago, but did not
mention warning lights during this morning's ride when car would not
restart. Usually, no matter if the cause if battery or alternator, the
charging warning lamp (looks like battery icon) should light.

Tim,

In order of simplicity/cost (though not necessarily in order of
probability), check:

1. Alternator belts tension (probably 2 belts)
2. Alternator belts condition (if worn, traction may be poor, or belts may
not hold tension)
3. Heavy wires from battery. Make sure the insulation is not worn off and
permitting an improper ground or short, and that the connection points
(terminals) appear solid (can't be jiggled, no sign of rust, no sign of
powdery corrosion).
4. Wires connecting to back of alternator. Same as #3.
5. Inspect and wire brush clean all the fuses and fuse holders
6. Remove battery and have tested by local car parts store (usually a
complimentary service in U.S., your miles/kilometers may vary)
7. Many things can wear out on an alternator. Now the question becomes how
to diagnose. In other words, you have to remove the alternator, which is
just within the skill level of beginner. To replace the brushes or the
voltage regulator, this is not a complete removal - as Michael pointed out,
the brushes are integrated with the voltage regulator module, with 2 screws
on back of alternator, but you might have to loosen the alternator belts and
holding bolts to get at the regulator. However, if you do a complete
removal, then you can take the alternator to your local car parts store for
complimentary test. This will give you additional information - you always
want more data, don't you?
8. Of course, the other alternative is to open the checkbook and buy a new
alternator, maybe $250 U.S., plus labor to install. Most shops will try to
talk you into a new set of belts for another $100.

I recommend that you step through 1 - 6. Maybe it's just a battery ($70
U.S. plus your own 20 minutes labor), or belts ($80 plus your own 40 minutes
labor), or fuses (just your 5 minutes labor). If you still have problem,
check back with group to decide if you spend $15 for new brushes plus your
labor, or $70 for the regulator, or skip to step 8.

Pat Q

 

[Michael Pardee]

Group,

Tim mentioned a bunch of flickering lights a few days ago, but did not
mention warning lights during this morning's ride when car would not
restart. Usually, no matter if the cause if battery or alternator, the
charging warning lamp (looks like battery icon) should light.

The devil of the brushes, if I'm not mistaken, is that the warning light is
lit by current going into the regulator to excite the rotor - when the
alternator is charging okay, the alternator bucks the battery on the other
side of the light and extinguishes the light by supplying the rotor current
itself. When the brushes go out, the alternator can't put out current but
the light doesn't go on because there isn't any current through it, either.
More modern systems may do it differently.

Mike

 

[tands]

Wow! Thank you all, especially Pat with your Dummies Guide to
Diagnosing Battery/Alternator problems. It seems it's now time for me
to roll up my sleeves and get my hands dirty.

To put my uneasiness into context, the first time I ever lifted the
bonnet and touched anything under there I played the idiot, took the
radiator cap off whilst it was hot and spent the night in hospital with
first degree burns! So I tend to avoid venturing under there if I can
possibly help it!

I'm currently living in the Netherlands and am missing being able to
communicate with friendly local mechanics or friends with know-how. I'm
suspicious that cold damp air, which there is plenty of here, isn't
doing my wagon any good. It's got 140,000 miles on the clock (so is
good for the same again!) and I think we're just going through a stage
of having to replace original parts that have served their time.

I'll check back to let you all know how I get on. If anyone knows of a
Volvo Owners club in the Eindhoven/Noord-Brabant area, I'd love to hear
from you.

Thanks - Tim

 

[Pat Quadlander]

Wow, radiator burns sound pretty painful.

A warning instruction omitted earlier: be sure to disconnect your battery
before doing any work around the alternator.

 

[Michael Pardee]

Wow, radiator burns sound pretty painful.

A warning instruction omitted earlier: be sure to disconnect your battery
before doing any work around the alternator.

Hah! I can be as stupid as the next guy... maybe stupider! Last month I
removed the cap from my daughter's Honda without thinking. The coolant
spewed out and soaked the sleeve of the shirt I was wearing, along with the
sleeve of the sweatshirt over it. I shook my arm to get the scalding
sweatshirt down past my hand, but I couldn't do anything about my shirt
sleeve. It was about 10 seconds before I got cold water on it.

Most of the burn was a bright red first degree, but there were some small
blisters. After a week or so the skin turned crinkly and peeled off.

I routinely pick tea bags and ears of corn out of boiling water with my
fingers (my wife no longer gets on me about it), but this was in a different
league. Since the stuff is made to boil at elevated temperatures, when it
comes out boiling it means business.

Ah, it's great to be a guy!

Mike

 

[Pat Quadlander]

My worst (so many to choose from):
With my ordinary home depot black&decker electric drill, it took about 45
minutes to drill out the broken and rusted mounting stud from the exhaust
manifold flange on my old 1800E. Holding the downpipe with my right hand,
drilling with full body weight on left hand, the worn out and red-hot bit
finally punched through to the other side, accelarating to top RPM, where
the tip of my index finger was waiting to be pinched between the bit and the
pipe. $5,000 medical bills to glue my fingertip and fingernail back
together. After bandages and splints removed 3 months later, discovered
that the bone was also broken at the knuckle and healed a little crooked.
Still can't bend that fingertip like I used to.

Ah, to be a stupid man and admit it.

 

[Michael Pardee]

OW!!!!!!!! You win.

Mike

My worst (so many to choose from):
With my ordinary home depot black&decker electric drill, it took about 45
minutes to drill out the broken and rusted mounting stud from the exhaust
manifold flange on my old 1800E. Holding the downpipe with my right hand,
drilling with full body weight on left hand, the worn out and red-hot bit
finally punched through to the other side, accelarating to top RPM, where
the tip of my index finger was waiting to be pinched between the bit and
the
pipe. $5,000 medical bills to glue my fingertip and fingernail back
together. After bandages and splints removed 3 months later, discovered
that the bone was also broken at the knuckle and healed a little crooked.
Still can't bend that fingertip like I used to.

Ah, to be a stupid man and admit it.

 

[Jim Carriere]

Heheh. After I stopped driving my 240, I was taking parts off of it,
partly to use them, partly out of curiosity. I figured I could rig
up my own valve spring compressor with a couple odd shaped pieces of
metal and a long screwdriver to pry. This took all of my body weight
leaning down on my makeshift prybar, when suddenly I slipped and
one of those odd shaped pieces of metal shot up and hit my two front
teeth right at the gumline. My whole head was instantly numb
(compared to when I came up with this scheme, ha ha) and I thought
for sure I just knocked out those two teeth and or badly split my
upper lip.

After about a minute, and lucky for me, I found a mirror to look in
and somehow all that happened was a couple small cuts on my gum. My
teeth weren't even crack and my head soon felt normal again. Imagine
what would have happened if that had hit me in an eye instead. Did I
mention lucky for me?

 

[Pat Quadlander]

One of us should copyright this thread before Dave Barry or someone cuts and
pastes it to his publisher.

Truth is funnier than fiction.

 

[tands]

Well guys, the prophets of doom were right. Even I can read a volt
meter and make a diagnosis on the back of its results.

I checked the battery with engine off and it read a happy 12 volts.
Engine on and the reading hit a lowly 7.6 volts. According to
everything I've read on the matter, that just should not be the reading
if the alternator is healthy. Wanting to be absolutely sure, I gave my
wife the signal to turn on headlights, heater, radio, etc and rev the
engine so that I could take another reading and expect a result around
the 14 volt mark. At the first move, turning on the headlights brought
the engine to an immediate stop. Oh dear!

So before you ask, no, we didn't get to testing the regulator, or the
charge across different sections of wire/battery/alternator. The car is
now stuck back out in the drive (we had to take it out of the garage to
avoid poisoning ourselves when testing with the engine on!) as it won't
start.

Looks like I'm going to have to get the alternator, or at least the
regulator out of there and see about having it fixed. The helpful
suggestions about taking the bits down to a friendly local electrical
store were great, but being stuck here in the Netherlands raises a bit
of a communication problem. At the moment, best bet looks like asking a
friend to collect an alternator for me whilst they're in England in 10
days time. On that point, is buying a 2nd hand alternator from a
trusted Volvo breaker a bad idea or worth a shot for the significant
cost saving?

Tim

 

[Pat Quadlander]

Recently replaced my '91 240 alternator. The old one was labeled "Bosch
Remanufactured". I purchased this car in 2000 (I think) - it had 104,000
miles, and I've added 55,000. So, I guess the remanufactured unit was good
for around 6 years and the original was replaced around 7 years.

Remanufactured is around $150 - $180 U.S., new is maybe $250 ? I don't know.
My "new" alternator is $15 from a pull your own junk yard with new brushes.
It may die today, or in 6 years.

Pat

 

[Gary Heston]

So before you ask, no, we didn't get to testing the regulator, or the
charge across different sections of wire/battery/alternator. The car is
now stuck back out in the drive (we had to take it out of the garage to
avoid poisoning ourselves when testing with the engine on!) as it won't
start.

[ ... ]

If you don't have a battery charger, get one; charge the battery
overnight, then you should have no problem starting and pulling
the car into the garage. Alternatively, you can charge it from
another car using jumper cables.

I drove my 145 for about a week with a dead alternator; I just
charged the battery every night and didn't use any electrical
accessories. Fortunantly, it was during the summer, so I didn't
need headlights driving the 4 miles each way to work.


Gary