Is it possible to use a 10 to 15% mix of methanol in 1997 Volvos without any problems?

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by justobservant, Apr 22, 2006.

  1. justobservant

    aarcuda69062 Guest

    No problem...
    As luck would have it, the only guy I know CC'd nitro fuel
    dragsters 8-(
     
    aarcuda69062, Apr 23, 2006
    #21
  2. justobservant

    Guest Guest

    You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it is one I do not share.

    Dealerships tend to be staffed by salesmen.


    While some dealerships have excellent mechanics (and some don't),
    few - if any - employees at a dealership would have the basic engineering
    skills to comment on this issue with any authority.

    If any of them would take the time to go to Volvo engineering and pose
    this question, I would be a little surprised.
     
    Guest, Apr 23, 2006
    #22
  3. justobservant

    Guest Guest

    That is another good point. I remember, dimly, when technical grade
    methanol could be purchased in bulk for $0.40 per gallon. Not any more.
     
    Guest, Apr 23, 2006
    #23
  4. Since this post was also published in the 'sci.chem' forum, is it
    possible to use additives that would diminish methanol's corrosive
    effects?

    And would a 10 to 15% ratio of methanol to gasoline be enough to yield
    fuel-economy savings simply by defraying gasoline use, yet not enough
    methanol to "lessen fuel-economy" overall?
     
    justobservant, Apr 23, 2006
    #24
  5. I suppose it could be possible, but where are we going with this? Methanol
    really isn't a cheap substitute for gasoline, and any dilution of a fuel
    with a less energy dense fuel will proportionately reduce the energy
    available. I know that is an oversimplification, but I still don't see why
    we'd want to.

    I'm reminded of the acetone additive posts. Big risks, small motive to take
    them.

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, Apr 24, 2006
    #25
  6. justobservant

    raconte Guest

    'Couse not. Methanol is made from petroleum. Well, natural gas
    anyway. Now if some nation or locality has tons of natural gas and no
    petroleum, and wants to make some money, they can try and get their
    synthesis subsidized ... Maybe we'll see it be cost effective. Hey,
    it works for corn producers in the US, sugar cane growers in Brazil,
    and wine makers in the EU (I'm talking ethanol here).

    But still, its not energy effective. That oxygen atom in the molecule
    causes the fuel to produce more water, and volatizing water, with its
    high specific heat, robs the engine of power. That's not oil company
    propaganda, that's chemistry.

    Everyone's trying stuff like this. People were using used frying oil
    in their disel engines. Got for free from fast-food places ... until
    they found out what it was being used for. Then the supply dried up.
     
    raconte, Apr 24, 2006
    #26
  7. Dear raconte:

    ....
    Any internal combustion engine uses air/oxygen as an oxidizer,
    and produces water where *hydrogen* is present in the fuel.
    Alcohol has no leg either up *or* down on petroleum fuels,
    because they all oxidize with oxygen and they all have hydrogen.

    So is it the carbon chain that provides the most energy?

    David A. Smith
     
    N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\), Apr 24, 2006
    #27
  8. justobservant

    John S. Guest

    Self-important internet "gurus" are not in my experience reliable
    sources of information. They are usually good for more than one
    partially informed opinion however. The dealer technicians and
    corporate support staff are going to be a far more reliable source of
    information.
     
    John S., Apr 24, 2006
    #28
  9. justobservant

    Nate Nagel Guest

    Alcohol has some oxygen already built into it, so you might think of it
    as an already partially oxidized hydrocarbon. (I can hear chemists
    cringing as I type this) In any case a given volume of *thanol will not
    react with as much atmospheric oxygen as will a given volume of
    gasoline; that is why it is less energy dense.

    nate
     
    Nate Nagel, Apr 24, 2006
    #29
  10. justobservant

    John S. Guest

    Well, yes dealerships do employ salespeople (men and women). But I
    don't take my car to the sales rep for repairs nor do I buy parts from
    her.

    There is a far greater chance of getting an informed opinion from the
    technical department in a dealer than on a news group. Wish the news
    groups were like they once were, but they are not. They no longer
    reliable sources of technical information. Is good information
    there...yes there can be, but it is usually buried.
     
    John S., Apr 24, 2006
    #30
  11. justobservant

    User Guest

    The other part of the calculation is that since alcohols burn cooler
    (lower heat of oxidation, lower latent heat overall) you would
    theoretically be able to run more advance and utilize more power from
    the gasoline fraction. However the control unit won't allow the advance
    numbers you would need to neutralize the lost energy (from dilution) so
    that adding oxidizers of any sort just waters down the fuel. The O2
    sensor output to the control unit will maximize efficiency and reduce
    emissions if the engine is running correctly. Most incomplete combustion
    byproducts are cleaned in the converters. Adding O2 to the exhaust
    stream just fools the O2 sensor output causing the control unit to feed
    more fuel in an attempt to bring the air-fuel ratio back to calculated
    lambda which is just slightly richer at 14.65:1 vs. 14.7:1.

    AS far as methanol goes there was a bulletin of somekind that circulated
    through the dealerships disallowing the use of methanol fuels. Among the
    components affected were the fuel sock in the tank, the bellows hose on
    the tank, the bracket and some of the plastics used for the in tank
    pumps, the hard plastic nylon fuel lines were somewhat affected, and
    most all rubber hoses were destroyed. There was no mention of engine
    damage that I recall.

    Bob
     
    User, Apr 24, 2006
    #31
  12. Both provide energy. A significant part of the problem is that methanol is
    already partially oxidized, as are all alcohols. The energy content of
    methanol is about 60% that of gasoline (http://tinyurl.com/f6nyl). The same
    site proclaims that at the time of publication (1997) methanol fuel M-85 was
    selling for the same price as gasoline in California. Your guess is as good
    as mine where the price stands today, if it is available. Of course, the 40%
    reduction in fuel efficiency would still apply.

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, Apr 24, 2006
    #32
  13. It is we who validate the gurus, not they who validate themselves (as
    dealers do, after all... money to invest is the main qualification for that
    rating.) Because of the cross-posting I'm not sure which forum brings you
    here, but alt.autos.volvo has a couple of professionals and at least one
    very talented amateur who rarely set a foot wrong. I've been following the
    group since we got our Volvo about 16 years ago and I trust them more than I
    did my dealer... when we still had one in the state.

    I am a dedicated DIYer who has resorted to dealers only three times in as
    many decades and regretted it once, but at least three of the Volvo gurus
    are several notches above me by any sane reckoning. One of them - a pro -
    has posted in this thread.

    My partner, who used to work at a Porsche dealership in Phoenix, warned me
    that service writers are usually the least experienced mechanics at a shop.
    The experienced ones are busy with cars, not with customers.

    But to each their own - believe whom you will.

    Mike

    "The main, if not the sole, purpose of education is to be able to detect
    when a man is talking rot." John Alexander Smith (1914), as reported by
    Harold Macmillan
     
    Michael Pardee, Apr 24, 2006
    #33
  14. justobservant

    Steve Guest

    The dealer has the great majority of their business from new cars. a 9 year
    old model is not goig to be their strong suit.

    All the dealer will do is to say whatever volvo says anyway, therefore the
    correct course is to write a email or call here:
    Volvo Customer Care Center
    For questions about the Volvo you currently own.

    Volvo Cars of North America, LLC
    Attn: Volvo Customer Care Center
    7 Volvo Drive
    Rockleigh, New Jersey 07647

    Tel: 1-800-458-1552
    Email:
    Hours: 8:30 AM to 7:00 PM EST, M - F
     
    Steve, Apr 24, 2006
    #34
  15. justobservant

    Don Stauffer Guest

    I was watching a CNN special last night on energy crunch. They had a
    segment on Brazil's ethanol push. They claim regular gasoline (not E85)
    had 25% ethanol (making it E25, I guess).
     
    Don Stauffer, Apr 24, 2006
    #35
  16. justobservant

    Guest Guest


    Let's answer this one definitively. No, the combustion of carbon
    in a hydrocarbon chain doe NOT provide the most energy. The
    hydrogen combustion is the clear winner.

    While alcohols may not be desirable in terms of our traditional
    perceptions of energy economics, we may have to change out
    perceptions. $100 per barrel oil is a possibility if not a likelihood.

    Brasil does indeed have alcohol fuel available at many stations and
    ALL their regular gasoline has 25% ethanol added. Most of their
    cars have Flexifuel capacity, and can burn just about any mixture.

    The factories produce both sugar and alcohol, and the energy to
    do this is provided by burning the bagasse for heat. Brasil did it
    because they HAD to do something. We might be seen as lagging
    behind them, yearning for cheap petroleum to return. (Cheap
    petroleum and Vaudeville are two things we are not likely to see
    again.)

    I have wondered why the 'water gas' reaction has not gotten more
    hype. Carbon reacts with water at high temperatures to yield hydrogen,
    carbon monoxide, and other by-products. At least the first two
    are reasonably good fuels. And we have plenty of coal...and water.
     
    Guest, Apr 24, 2006
    #36
  17. Dear HLS:

    ....
    Not really plenty of either. As far as coal goes, if it isn't
    destined for a power plant, then it is being shipped to Japan.
    We are already using every drop of water that falls on the US
    pretty close to x1 before it hits the ocean again. Plus
    siphoning it out of the ground...

    David A. Smith
     
    N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\), Apr 25, 2006
    #37
  18. The contaminants in the coal are the problem. The electric utility I work
    for used to make "coal gas" and the production sites have cost us a fortune
    to clean up. The heavy metals left behind made for mighty toxic waste.

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, Apr 25, 2006
    #38
  19. Dear Michael Pardee:

    They have lots of power and heat available. Couldn't they either
    allow the water to boil off/evaporate, or simply plate the heavy
    metals onto something? Heavy metals are being removed in
    municipal drinking water systems through their adsorption onto
    iron...

    As a side light, medical product sterilizers that use ETO have to
    get rid of this gas once it has been used. They convert it into
    ethylene glycol, which they still have to dispose of as a
    hazardous material... and we get cheap(er) engine coolant (I
    guess).

    Is it just a "regulation thing"?

    David A. Smith
     
    N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\), Apr 25, 2006
    #39
  20. I rang Volvo Australia and was told 5% max and then I am not sure as even
    between brands there seems to be a difference in my Turbo if I push it .So
    far I have avoided the use of Methanol but as our Prime minister has a mate
    who is in to producing methanol it no doubt will be forced on us .My hose
    between my tanks rotted so did my wifes both cars were brought second hand
    from Sydney Australia where Methanol is common and it does rot hoses rubber
    and such .
     
    John Robertson, Apr 27, 2006
    #40
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